http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/20/iraq.protests.ap/index.html

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1993 320TE M104
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"music and women I cannot but give way to, whatever my business" -Pepys

Tremendous outpouring of support displayed by billions who stayed home.

Botnst

Those are the same people who apparently don't celebrate New Years Eve.

Great logic here--the billions who stayed home are automatically in support of the war with Iraq.

Is it not possible that some in opposition did not protest?

Is it not also possible that many have no opinion?

Just two alternatives to the either/or fallacy introduced by B.

My incredibly accurate mind-reading ability informs me that the overwhelming majority of people on the planet embrace the politics of apathy.

I deal with environmental movement-type people quite a bit. Many are believers in a sort of ill-defined pantheism. It may be overt--Gaia for example. Or it may be that they don't even recognize it as a faith system but they feel a connectedness with Nature and a need to defend her wild places and furry things. This is not my thing, though I understand why they feel that way. I'm an environmentalist, too. Gimme a tree, I'll hug it.

What bothers me is that they confuse ardent love with reason and knowledge. Many of those folks don't understand forestry or hunting and so forth, they just see trees hacked down and Bambi bleeding. They send-out fliers about the evils of tree harvesting. They drive to the march protesting offshore drilling.

I think lots of people involved in political movements are like that. They are the political equivalent of Napoleon's cannon-fodder soldiers. Ardent believers in the Cause.

B

B.--high marks for changing the subject, again.

You said that the article cited, mentioning millions worldwide who marched in protest of the Iraq war, meant that the billions who stayed home supported it.

I called that an either/or fallacy.

You proceeded to gum up the works with wisecracks about environmentalists and such.

If you can't argue facts, change the subject--your philosophy in a nutshell (woops, did that mention of "nut" and you in the same sentence constitute a personal attack?).

Joseph,

Guess I should've prefaced my comments with, "MBlover,...". It will then perhaps make sense that he and I were in playful conversation and that my response had nothing whatsoever to do with your posting.

If you want facts or opinions about what the demonstration numbers actually mean, I haven't a clue.

B

So when you said, "Tremendous outpouring of support by the billions that stayed home"--that meant, nothing?

If it meant something, what?

Joseph,
If you want facts or opinions about what the demonstration numbers actually mean, I haven't a clue.

B

...having been up close and personal with both logging and offshore drilling, I can tell you that there's plenty to protest regarding those activities, whether you understand them or not. A rudimentary understanding does help though, and I wouldn't dream of speaking out against something I didn't bother to take the time to research a little...

Z, when I tell you I'm an environmentalist, I'm not being facetious. the overwhelming reason that I could never consider being a Republican is their willful blindness to the real damage humanity has done to the environment. Some of it is reversible, most of it is not. Damn the Republicans.

One of the main reasons I cannot be a Democrat is that they think increasing the population of the USA through immigration is a good thing. I believe this is selling our cherished birthright for votes. Damn the Democrats.

One of teh main reasons I'm not a card-carrying capital "L" Libertarian is that they think both Dems and Repos are okay on this issue: laissez faire business and lots of immigration. Damn them, too.

But the stupid-headedness of the environmental movement does them no good, either. Development is not evil. Population is not evil. Both can be (and currently are) problems. An aful lot of the fights are silly or squander good will for small gain. But I don't damn them for it. Rather, its a waste of time, treasure, and talent.

Back when I used to be a member of things I was in the NRA, DU, Audubon, and TNC. I've also been a member of the SAF and worked for oil companies. Most of this stuff, simultaneously. I did not and do not think the various goals of these entities are by nature, in conflict. To many environmentalists, this puts me over the edge. Their fanaticism is reminiscent of Cromwell's Roundheads.

B

Though I've worked in the past with one of those 'colorful' third parties known for environmentalism, I've been critical (published) of the ecology movement's lack of class consciousness, and bull-headed approach to the issues. My roots in the working class has convinced me that you simply cannot bludgeon economically challenged people over the head with demands that they alter their spending, transportation, food options etc., and expect positive outcomes. There needs to be incentives, it can't be perceived as just sacrifice and suffering for some abstract concept fancied by middle and upper class activists. Of course, we really do need to alter our current practices, and sacrifice a bit, but the poor shouldn't disproportionally bear the burden, especially with their meager pocketbooks.

Have you been following the current controversy regarding the Sierra Club's board elections? It seems some anti-immigrant interests are attempting to assume control of the board, or at least that's how it's being portrayed in the press.

"following" is too strong. I read a newspaper account and came away with teh same understanding as you.

I have never been a Sierra Clubber, but I usually agree with them on national issues. What I like about their structure is the loose hierarchy allows for approaches tailored to local mores. We have local club president who owns a caddy dealership. He's very much a member of teh ol' boys' network. But he's tired of seeing his favorite hunting and fishing spots needleslly or negligently degraded. So he put is money and his mouth and time where he thought it could do some local good.

My affection for that club is similar to mine for the ACLU. I appreciate the good that they do and the sincerity of their efforts.

Botnst

So if "Tremendous outpouring of support by the billions who stayed home" was neither a fact nor an opinion, what, pray tell, did you mean by posting it, Botnst?

Dick Lamm, running for the Sierra Club board on the anti-immigration ticket is our former governor and now professor at my Alma Mater, University of Denver. He's always up for the controversial. Gave a wonderful speech once on the duty to die.

I agree with Z that the environmental movement has very little class consciousness. It was exciting back in the 80's when Earth First and the IWW were establishing connnections.

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