Does that make you an Alpha Beta, Jake?

Posted by Jake: If fat-ball Moore and his propaganda is the best the left can do, then you best roll-up the mats and go home. Anybody that believes his hateful, tilted slant on America is just plain ignorant, or worst yet, operating from an agenda.

Moore is at best an opportunist attempting to get rich from the capitalist society he so hates, at worst, he appears to be a communist with an agenda of bringing down the government of the US. What he most likely is, however, is a former fat kid in high school wreaking havock with the types of people he despised back then. A true revenge of the nerds scenario. We can only hope that effects of obesity and bad living work quickly.

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Let's see: two references to Moore's weight, one accusation of treason (". . .a communist with an agenda of bringing down the government of the U.S."), and one amateur psychoanalyis of his motives. Now THAT'S elevating the discussion.

Joe B.

To paraphrase a quote: if thats the best you can do then you best roll-up the mats and go home.

"bringing down the governemnt of the US". Yeah, everyone who disagrees is a traitor. Unfortunately, so many miles have been put on that one, its time for the junkyard. People just aren't buying that crap anymore.

Such a persuasive argument. I'm sold.

I will see it but only when it comes to free tv I will not further his cause.

PS Like Bot I enjoyed Roger and Me and his TV show especially when we went to Russia to ask them not target Flint with nuclear missles, now that was a memorable show and darn good tv I might add.

I wonder if the fact Kerry is now setting fund rasing records, most of it in small amounts, may be due to the movie. Must be a lot of ignorant hatefilled people out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/02/politics/campaign/02donate.html?ei=5006&en=5c451b599da13f1d&ex=1089432000&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=

He's been on a roll for awhile I don't think the movie has much to do with it, dems are donating because they think they have a chance at winning.....which they do.

Personally, I beleive there is a big sea change going on out there, especially among women and middle-of-the-road voters. The sum total of all this bad Iraq news is that Bush and company are starting to look like what their political opposition have accused them of - people who prosecuted an unnessecery war. If a person has that suspicion and then get to see films of horrendous civilian casualities as shown in Moore's film, they are going to start feeling like they have been made participants in something immorally wrong. Once someone has become defined a certain way in the national conscience, thats a hard thing to shake. If I were a Republican, I might consider taking a break from fighting the Dems long enough to take a look at dumping Bush. He's taking you guys over a cliff.

Posted by Botnst: To me, its extraordinarily informative that people can watch a Moore movie and find it factual. Having facts is not the same as factual, is it? I think Moore is as honest as he can possibly be with his use of facts.

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Having not seen the movie, and having no intention of doing so, you are in no position to judge.

Joe B.

Joe B: one does not have to watch a Hitler news reel or listen to an entire speech from him to judge that it is wrong.

There are enough exerpts of the Moore piece o crap lie film that one can judge quite well that it is not worth seeing.

drink some more of that socialist kool-aid that MM is pouring, and when Kerry wins and raises gas taxes and your lovely MB is on blocks because you can't really afford $4.00 a gallon gasoline, you wont have anyone to blame but yourself (and super rich MM)

Not only that, Botsnst makes it sound like Moore stands there making assertions. We are shown film after film of administration officials saying things that are demonstrably not true to even the most slightly informed person. We see a mother whose son as been killed in the war, who simply wants to know why her son died, a simple middle class working women, not some political hack, asking the questions we all should have been asking before blinding following the neocons into this snakepit. We see Pentagon spokesman with their pointers, showing Nintendo films of our santized war, and then we are shown films of what actually happened, of families wiped out, of crying mothers and dead children. If there is little truth in the movie, that little truth damns this whole enterprise for what it is - war and mass murder committed by lying purveyors of death. What is criminal is that there is more than "little truth" and "bias" here - it is a searing indictment of a country that has gone morally wrong due to some of the worst leadership we have ever had.

Posted by Botnst:
I don't have to have cancer to have an opinion on smokin', Joe.

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No one is disputing that one may have an opinion without consideration for facts. Some opinions are more informed than others, a point you have made against others many a time.

Joe B.

Posted by Botnst: I forgot which office of gov Moore was elected to. Help me out okay?


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Is your point that only people in government are qualified to present information, and draw conclusions, about the performance of government? Might as well do away with a free press then (come to think of it, we pretty much have).

You present your views on this forum; Moore presents his in a larger forum. In each case, individuals are free to judge the validity of the arguments.

You are not shy about questioning the validity of claims made by other posters, but I do think you at least read them. In Moore's case, you feel no obligation to view his creation, for fear of "supporting" him. This is patent nonsense, of course. It cost me $7.50 to see the movie; don't know what the price is down in your neck of the woods. But I would wager that you spend far more "supporting" other forms of entertainment (as do I), and think nothing of it.

My point is simple: without viewing the product you are criticizing, your opinion is reduced in value.

Joe B.

Krugman on Fahrenheit
Salon.com

Paul Krugman devotes his column today to Fahrenheit 9/11, and although much has been written about Michael Moore's movie by now, this is a must-read analysis of the film's value.

"Why hold a self-proclaimed polemicist to a higher standard than you hold the president of the United States? And for all its flaws, "Fahrenheit 9/11" performs an essential service. It would be a better movie if it didn't promote a few unproven conspiracy theories, but those theories aren't the reason why millions of people who aren't die-hard Bush-haters are flocking to see it. These people see the film to learn true stories they should have heard elsewhere, but didn't. Mr. Moore may not be considered respectable, but his film is a hit because the respectable media haven't been doing their job."

"For example, audiences are shocked by the now-famous seven minutes, when George Bush knew the nation was under attack but continued reading "My Pet Goat" with a group of children. Nobody had told them that the tales of Mr. Bush's decisiveness and bravery on that day were pure fiction."

"Or consider the Bush family's ties to the Saudis. The film suggests that Mr. Bush and his good friend Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the ambassador known to the family as Bandar Bush, have tried to cover up the extent of Saudi involvement in terrorism. This may or may not be true. But what shocks people, I think, is the fact that nobody told them about this side of Mr. Bush's life."

" ... Mr. Moore's greatest strength is a real empathy with working-class Americans that most journalists lack. Having stripped away Mr. Bush's common-man mask, he uses his film to make the case, in a way statistics never could, that Mr. Bush's policies favor a narrow elite at the expense of less fortunate Americans -- sometimes, indeed, at the cost of their lives."