Definitly not vd.

Every vote counts. There's plenty of them here. If what I post changes one person's vote it will be worth. You guys call me negative, your post drips with it. This is a free country, anyone who doesn't like me living here, can go f**k themselves.

Will DO! But you missed the point, its not us that dont like you living here, it seems rather that you dont like living here!
I thought it more facetiousnes not negativism.

Look, man, I went thru the "American Love it or Leave it" thing 30 years ago. You want an education, I'll give you the mini-course in early 1970's history: You want everybody to believe what you believe and define that state as "happiness", you just go ahead, its a free world and I don't care if you live or die. Me, I'm over here not only defining what my happiness is, I am expressing my unhappiness in a democratic, peaceful way. That's how our system works. You want everyone you don't agree with to leave, your one step away from Hitler and his solutions to Jews.

Quote: But you missed the point, its not us that dont like you living here, it seems rather that you dont like living here!

Under that theory, Lincoln should have moved to Canada.

Poll shows 22-point swing in Americans' perception of safety

Monday, July 12, 2004 Posted: 10:26 PM EDT (0226 GMT)


(CNN) -- While both major candidates made their case Monday that the presidential race will boil down to a question of security, a new poll revealed a significant change in how safe Americans feel.

During a speech at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee, President Bush declared half a dozen times that the American people were safer.

The Republican incumbent said the country was safer because of his decision to invade Iraq, even though he acknowledged the weapons of mass destruction that he warned Saddam Hussein possessed have not been found.

"Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq," Bush said.

"We have removed a declared enemy of America who had the capability of producing weapons of mass murder and could have passed that capability to terrorists bent on acquiring them. In the world after September 11 [2001], that was a risk we could not afford to take."

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry rejected Bush's claim that his policies have made America safer.

"It's not enough just to give speeches," Kerry, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, told reporters in Boston. "America will only be safer when we get results."

A recent poll shows the president also has not convinced more than half the country that it should feel safer.

The CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll finds 55 percent of Americans feel less safe from terror because of the war in Iraq. The fear factor is now 22 percentage points higher than it was six months ago, when the same question was asked.

The Democratic challenger also charged that Bush broke a trust with the American people with his decision to invade Iraq.

"I happen to believe that the commander in chief has to be able to look into eyes of a parent, a family -- brothers, sisters, grandparents -- and you better be able to say to them, 'I tried to do everything in my power to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but the threat to our nation was such that we had no choice,' " Kerry said. "I believe that value, that trust, was broken in these past years."

The president said the decision to invade Iraq followed Saddam Hussein's rejection of a U.N. Security Council demand for a "full accounting" of his weapons programs.

"As he had for over a decade, Saddam Hussein refused to comply," Bush said. "So, I had a choice to make. Either take the word of a madman or defend America. Given that choice, I will defend America every time."

Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader said the United States was led into war on Iraq based on a "platform of fabrications, deceptions and lies."

"Given all the bloodshed on American forces, all the disease, the injuries, the deaths, the mental damage, not to mention the Iraqi innocents being killed, not to mention turning Iraq into a magnet for international, stateless terror -- 60 percent of people think this has increased violence in the Middle East -- if that isn't an impeachable offense, tell me about Bill Clinton," Nader said.

Bush also highlighted what he said were other successes in the time since the terror attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, including the invasion of Afghanistan, the capture and killing of al Qaeda leaders in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, the interruption of an international network that sold nuclear technology and the dismantling of Libya's nuclear weapons program.

Bush spoke near the site of the government's nuclear weapons complex in Tennessee where officials are studying nuclear material surrendered by Libya.

The president said Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi got the message because America was so tough against Saddam.

"Because the Libyan government saw the seriousness of the civilized world and correctly judged its own interests, the American people are safer."

But at least one weapons expert said the issue is not that simple.

"I don't really agree that it was Iraq that pushed Moammar Gadhafi into making the decision to give up his WMD," said Rose Gottemoeller, who focuses on nuclear issues for the Carnegie Endowment, a private, nonprofit organization dedicated to advancing cooperation between nations. "This has been a long diplomatic process that has gone on over the last 5 or 6 years."

Kerry also disagreed with Bush's assertion.

"In the two years since 9/11, less nuclear materials have been secured than in the two years prior to 9/11," Kerry said. "The facts speak for themselves. North Korea is more dangerous today than it was before this administration came into power."

Bush defended his reliance on intelligence that later proved faulty, saying the conclusions his administration drew from it were the same that others reached.

"My administration looked at intelligence on Iraq and we saw a threat," he said. "Members of the United States Congress from both political parties looked at the same intelligence, and they saw a threat. The United Nations Security Council looked at the intelligence, and it saw a threat. The previous administration and the Congress looked at the intelligence and made regime change in Iraq the policy of our country."

In a written statement given to reporters, Kerry said his top security goal as president would be "to prevent terrorists from gaining weapons of mass murder."

"I have proposed an ambitious and aggressive plan for dramatically reducing the threats from nuclear terrorism: We will greatly accelerate work to secure nuclear materials at risk and invest the time and leadership needed to address the nuclear threats in North Korea and Iran." the Kerry statement said. "I will appoint a national director of intelligence so that there is one individual with responsibility and accountability for intelligence operations."

Kirk

Amazing. You went from 1984 total posts / 21.95 posts per day to 1961 total posts / 21.68 posts per day in an instant. Somebody must have deleted a thread and took 23 of your treasures with it.

Wow, 21 posts per day. How do you find time to do anything else? You're et up with it. I know how it is man, I was the same way about Nixon.

__________________
Palangi

2004 C240 Wagon 203.261 Baby Benz
2008 ML320 CDI Highway Cruiser
2006 Toyota Prius, Saving the Planet @ 48 mpg
2000 F-150, Destroying the Planet @ 20 mpg



TRUMP .......... WHITEHOUSE
HILLARY .........JAILHOUSE
BERNIE .......... NUTHOUSE
0BAMA .......... OUTHOUSE

I'm on an academic sabbatical for the summer. Out of three classes, two are skate, so too much free time on my hands. In addition this is one of the few forums I've found where the average intelligence level of the posters is pretty high. Between that and insomnia, you all have to suffer. If you lived through Nixon, you probably understand why I just don't feel like living thru another Vietnam. I'm the father of five boys, three military age and two not far behind, and I'll be damned if they ar going to die for George Bush and his stupid enterprise. I have a visceral disgust for this man after he hijacked the 911 tragedy to pursue the Iraq War, a war he and his cronies have desired before they even came into office. I've also been a computer programmer for 30 years, so I can type like a son of *****. We all need to use our god-given talents to do good.

Kirk,

Did another thread go South? Can't figure it. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

I dunno, I haven't checked. I'm still pissed about that WMD thread. It was a great read - it was amazing how the tone, direction and in some cases meltdowns of the particpants unwinded.

I'll go stalk around and let you know.

Did you see the post above about the dramatic swing in the polls? I know people don't put much stock in them, but even I was awake enough in stats to know a 22% shift is "statistically significant".

Didn't see anything. Must have been an old one.

Here's a great quote. Kerry has improved remarkedly since Edwards came on board - he seems to be losing the stiffness he's shown all year.:

"I happen to believe that the commander in chief has to be able to look into eyes of a parent, a family -- brothers, sisters, grandparents -- and you better be able to say to them, 'I tried to do everything in my power to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but the threat to our nation was such that we had no choice,' " Kerry said. "I believe that value, that trust, was broken in these past years."

- John Kerry 7/12/04

He's sounding more like the kind of president we need instead of the guy whose not Bush. No wonder they want to cancel the election.

Now it's really spooky you went from 1984 yesterday to 1968 today(that was some year!), maybe every 1000 years all people on the earth ball go loco...........

William Rogers.......

I'm being censored.

Kirk, any explanations or are your posts just missing? Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

"Hey, Austin and Rick - "

Hey Kirk-
You missed my earlier post. I'm done here. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go on and on with you or anyone else about 2 subjects: politics and religion. They are topics that involve too much emotion(as you've proven here) and can never come to an end conclusion. I poked my neck in here for heaven only knows what reason, but mostly just to have at you overly enthusiastic types. So save your breath with me. If you want to jump to another subject, I'll be more than happy to carry on a discussion with ya. Any time. You're obviously a well educated, intelligent person, and I don't get to rub shoulders with many like you in my line of work.
Also let me clarify. I do not "want" you to "love it or leave it". I too grew up during that era. I was poking a jab at ya, only saying if I had as dark an outlook at this country as some of you guys seem to, I'd move to Canada or Montana. It was a sarcastic joke, that obviously got lost in the translation, as often happens here on the forum. I appologize for that. My bad.
I too have a son that could be drafted, and wouldn't be real excited to see him go to war. But if that's what my country calls for, I'll send him on his way.
No Kirk, stick around. Vote. Campaign. Stay at it. The country needs more who are passionate about our country. I'm dead serious here. No joke. I don't care if we agree or not. I'm just glad to see peolple who really do give a sh%% about our country. I grew up with a very politically passionate father, who always lectured me that this country was gonna go down the drain if us younger(then) generation doesn't wake up. I do take politics serious, more so now than when I was young. I am worried, very worried, about the direction this country is going. But for different reasons than alot of the forum members here. Were I too bring up my reasons and concerns, it'd just open a can of worms I don't want to get in the middle of. So I do my own political thing in my own way. Here in the forum isn't that way.
So have at it. I sincerely wish you luck. But maybe saying those that don't agree with you can go "f&&k themselves" isn't the most effective way to win anyone over to your side of the arguement. Think about it.

__________________
past MB rides:
'68 220D
'68 220D(another one)
'67 230
'84 SD
Current rides:
'06 Lexus RX330
'93 Ford F-250
'96 Corvette
'99 Polaris 700 RMK sled
2011 Polaris Assault
'86 Yamaha TT350(good 'ol thumper)