GASP! NO! (insert explicative here!) 603 help

[Hit Man X]

Originally Posted by sixto

1) If the crank was at TDC, you don't know if it's #1 TDC or #6 TDC.

2) If he hit the starter with the IP out then the cam did not turn in sync with the crank!!! I'd be more concerned about that than getting the IP back in time.

Sixto
93 300SD

Um, how did it not turn with the crank? Timing chain + tensioner are still in the block.

[sixto]

Tensioner is in place but there isn't much tension if the timer isn't fixed to the IP. Turning the crank will draw the timer to the left without turning the cam.

Is the chain still slack? I'm guessing the sounds weren't pretty when he turned the key.

Is the post that sprays oil from the lower left of the timer still there?

Sixto
93 300SD

[Hit Man X]

****. So I could potentially have a dead top end?

[BenzDiesel]

Originally Posted by sixto

1) If the crank was at TDC, you don't know if it's #1 TDC or #6 TDC.

2) If he hit the starter with the IP out then the cam did not turn in sync with the crank!!! I'd be more concerned about that than getting the IP back in time.

Sixto
93 300SD

If the timing is all the way messed up, I would first plug the #1 glow plug hole up with a piece of tissue and turn the crankshaft clock-wise until the tissue POPPED out as the numbers on the crankshaft were heading upwards toward Zero/TDC. The popping out of the tissue would "guarantee" that you were on the compression stroke. Now, it is possible for the tissue to seemingly be pushed out by air on some turns of the crankshaft, but I like to keep trying until it POPS OUT FORCEFULLY, which at that time I know that my chances are good that I am on the compression stroke, which I know I must be on before I can get the timing correct.

Next, I would STOP turning the crankshaft at Zero TDC ("0/1", you have to be careful because 10 BTDC can easily be MISTAKEN for 0 TDC). Then while at 0 TDC on the crankshaft, I would check to see if the mark at the camshaft bearing holder was in alignment. If not, THEN I would take out the camshaft to set it correctly. Hopefully, no valves would have been bent or broken or pistons busted at this point due to running the engine with the camshaft and crankshaft out of sync.

Once, I got those two marks correct, then dieselsteve's method of setting the IP would definitely work to get the car started.

BenzDiesel

[BenzDiesel]

Originally Posted by sixto

3) I would not rotate the crank pulley with the IP out.

Sixto
93 300SD

Yeah, that's right. I would keep the IP in place, until I got the crank and the cam marks aligned. Then set the IP timing last.

BenzDiesel

[JimmyL]

Originally Posted by stcbenz83

everyone knows better than to even think of touching my 240.

Well....... I don't know. I was thinking of driving up to Illinois and........

[Hit Man X]

If it's screwed it is, I have plenty of other vehicles. I'm not going to beat up someone over a vehicle. Anything can be fixed in time.

NO top end damage, everything seems to have stayed together. I turned it over by hand for about 10min checking everything. If my gaskets and hoses come into stock today, I'll put it together and hopefully it'll start.

[jshadows]

Originally Posted by BenzDiesel

("0/1", you have to be careful because 10 BTDC can easily be MISTAKEN for 0 TDC).

My flywheel says 0|T which lays out TDC clearly. A dirty one is what you want to avoid (we had this problem a few months back with someone who had the greasiest timing marks ever).

Spray a bit of brake cleaner on there if in doubt. I also put orange paint on mine so I could clearly see it coming around without having to squint.

Pull valve cover and eyeball where you are currently at. You should be able to see cam mark and you might have crank at a point where you can see 0|T from above or below.

Worst case, if you think you are way off, pull cam towers (follow FSM removal sequence) and remove lifters..retime without lifters, then reinstall. continue to IP timing. (this assumes valve stems are OK).

[barry123400]

I was and still hope there was not enough slack in that chain to pull by with cranking. How much space is around the timer sprocket wheel anyways towards the engine centreline on a 603? Yes if the chain has managed to pull by it becomes more complicated. Or if so much slack was introduced it dropped clear of the bottom sprocket. The hydralic lifters will sometimes avoid the spectre of bent valves and such when cold cranking in such a situation. They will usually give somewhat in my experience or have not really pumped up yet. Solid mechanical types of valve trains are far less forgiving basically with no give so something has to give. Better for this to have happened on a 603 than a 617 if that chain has slipped by signifigantly. This only applies to cold cranking though. Not very much of it either. You need a little luck perhaps. A good clue might be to ask your brother if it jammed up when he was cranking or it just cranked till he stopped trying. You should get away with this. The reason is I do a lot of volkswagons that snap their belts either when shut down or at the initial start try. There is no way to determine the moment of failure. They engines obviously turn with no cam action when cranking them over with the starter. No jamming occurs and you just notice you have less compression. I always felt it was the hydralic lifters that saved them. They are real interference engines. Now if the belt fails with the engine running basically forget it. There will be damage of some sort.

[gsxr]

I don't think anyone else asked - or I missed it - but this is important:

1) Was the metal timing basket in place, that holds the timing device in place while the pump is removed? If so, you may be OK. If not, you may have damage. A close-up of the timing device, WITH the basket installed, is at this link. The basket keeps the sprocket centered and should have kept the cam mostly in synch. Otherwise you may have a few bent valves.

2) I would NOT try to put this back together without the IP lock tool (or, if you can borrow one, the RIV A-B timing tool.)

3) All you need to do is get the cam and crank at TDC, roll to 15 degrees past (ATDC), and insert the locked pump. Remove lock, turn engine twice and re-check pump timing - adjust as needed. (I'd set it to 14°, btw - later engines all use this spec.) Make sure the lock tool is removed before turning the engine!!!

[gsxr]

These photos may (or may not) be helpful... notice that nothing holds the timing device + sprocket in place, except that it sits on the IP shaft.

[Hit Man X]

Well the cam lines up to 2° out on the balancer just like before, I think I got very lucky.

I still have the AB light I borrowed from MB-Doc here so I'm going to try to put it back together on Friday.

For my life I can't remember if 15° is on the left or the right side of the balancer

[sixto]

15 ATDC is on the left (corrected) of TDC as you view the balancer from above standing ahead of the radiator.

Turn the engine CW to TDC then a little more CW to 15 ATDC. With the IP and chain tensioner in place you shouldn't rotate the engine CCW.

I'm glad everything's fine but I sure feel like Chicken Little

Sixto
93 300SD

[Hit Man X]

Originally Posted by sixto

15 ATDC is on the left (corrected) of TDC as you view the balancer from above standing ahead of the radiator.

Turn the engine CW to TDC then a little more CW to 15 ATDC. With the IP and chain tensioner in place you shouldn't rotate the engine CCW.

I'm glad everything's fine but I sure feel like Chicken Little

Sixto
93 300SD

Okay cool, I always rotate it CW from the front view.

I'm just VERY pleased nothing was dead on the top end.



I'm wondering how I can do this without the IP lock.

[barry123400]

Can you not use the rv device to indicate the injection pump is positioned properly at start of injection until you have the pump slid in? It does indicate an accurate start of delivery position? I again have never done one of these pumps. Glad the chain did not slide by and still think if it had you might have got away with it at cranking speed. Thats less likely if the valves are less than perpendicular to the piston surface. I live such a sheltered life that I have never had a 603 valve cover off. The moment arm position of the rocker arm to cam would give some additional clue if the valve train would survive at very low revolutions with really off timing. The volkswagen cam drives the hydralic lifters directly and that lessens the actual stress involved to some point. It still requires a lot of pressure to force bleed those lifters. I also suspect with no proof that old lifters will leak down better than new ones at very low speeds. This slipped timing at low speeds survivability theory on 603s as well will have to wait for another poster to prove or disprove unfortunatly. Perhaps your brother can attempt to start the car again with the pump removed for a further test? I am really glad all this is going to end well. Not quite as glad as you perhaps.