KYB struts: sold in pairs? (190E) - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cscmc1 · #1 10-25-2004, 02:12 PM

Hey folks -- dumb question, but every site I look at for 190E strut pricing pictures the KYB struts as a pair... does anyone know whether they're sold as a set? Seems ridiculously cheap (under $100 for a pair at many places, while Boge's and Bilsteins are significantly more and are presumably sold [and pictured] each).

I understand many have found fault with the KYBs' quality, but on my budget, I just can't spend well over 2x the price for a pair of the better struts. If they are sold each, though, it would be an easier choice to try and wait, save the $, and buy the better struts and shocks.

Thanks!

Chris
88 190E 2.3

83-240D · #2 10-25-2004, 02:17 PM

i don't know but kyb were really good gas shocks back in the 70's. had 4 on my nova. yep chevy nova, 6, three speed autoand it also had teflon bushings. picked up a stranded porsche driver back to his hotel room and he commented that the nova cornered flatter than his 911. OKAY!!

lino · #3 10-25-2004, 02:56 PM

I had Bilstein Heavy Dutys on my old car (1998 190e 2.3 8v) and have to say that they are by far the best shocks I ever bought. I have only ever bought Bilstein since then. I like to buy quality that way I don't have to keep changing the same parts over and over again. Shop around and you will probably be able to get them for a price that's not too far off of other lower quality brands. Here is a site with some pricing:

http://www.allshocks.com/bilstein/html/show_shocks.asp?make='MERCEDES%20BENZ'&model='190,%20190E,%20190D'&year='1988'

On the other hand, if cost is what's the most important to you right now than maybe this might help

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7929520284&category=33590&sspagename=WDVW

chazola · #4 10-25-2004, 08:22 PM

Go with bilsteins. Like Lino said they can be found online at decent prices. Cheapest I've seen was something like $65 each for rears.
Don't skimp on quality now as you'll only regret it later. I'm sure they're OEM on Mercs for a reason.

psfred · #5 10-25-2004, 09:39 PM

KYBs tend to be HARD and ride like Monroes.

Stick with Bilsteins unless you simply cannot afford them and you have totally dead shocks.

Bilsteins usually fail by starting to knock on large deflection, they very rarely go squishy. Eventually they get to riding VERY hard (from oil loss) and need to be replaced. IF they don't crash and bang, save you pennys and wait until you can afford OEM shocks.

If you have a serious bouncing problem, KYBs will be better than what you ahve, but I'd guessing you won't like them.

Peter

cscmc1 · #6 10-25-2004, 11:00 PM

Cash is an issue at the moment... I'm torn here. The car is bouncy as hell, and wanders all over the highway. I just bought this car Friday and that's my biggest complaint. First up: shocks & struts, and probaby brakes (resurface rotors, and add new pads, hopefully, should fix the odd pedal feel).

This isn't going to be a race car... it's a commuter car which will be well cared for, but my "fun" car is my Mustang. That one rides on Eibachs and Konis, with all sorts of suspension goodies. I just want to lose the bounce ASAP; are the Bilsteins that much better?

Thanks!

Chris

psfred · #7 10-25-2004, 11:37 PM

Chris:

Bilsteins are valved much differently that US style shocks -- much softer on compression, much stiffer on extension.

The result is that the wheels can move up easily, but will not drop very fast, and large irregularities like railroad tracks just cause a "thumpity thump" noise with very little motion of the body, unlike American shocks where the impact will shake the car to bits.

Ditto for chuckholes -- with Bilsteins the wheel won't drop into the hole, so you don't get the "pogo stick" effect when it hits the other side.

Vastly superior handling, since the tires don't leave the road anywhere near as much.

Comfort Bilsteins are quite soft, ride very nicely, but do not really affect handling as much as you might think -- MB uses nice big antisway bars instead of very stiff shocks to control body roll -- to the point that the W115 chassis cars were TOO flat -- I've known several people to have a tire dismount on the front outside wheel under extreme cornering! Later models have lighter rear antisway bars to produce some roll oversteer at handling limits -- safer than knocking a tire off the rim!

Someone put Monroe shocks on the rear of the 280 SE -- caused terrible ride and miserable handling, as the rear would literally go airborn over railroad trackes, etc. I put a pair of used Bilsteins off a 1967 230S on it, and the difference is amazing -- rides right over rough stuff everyone else has to slow down for with only tire impact noise, no bounce, no flying up in the air, etc.

If you can manage the Bilsteins, do so. If not, the KYBs will be a great improvement, although they are more like Monroes than Bilsteins.

I would also check tie rod ends, ball joints, and rear suspension links. If you get lots of noise from the rear, thumps on accelerations, and sensitivity to crosswinds, you need new thrust and torque links back there before you do anything else. This may fix a lot of the problem.

Funny pedal how?

You cannot turn MB rotors, you toss them a buy new ones, they only give you about 3mm total wear. They are cheap ($45 for the fronts, $20 each for th rears??? Check FastLane) and are only good for two sets of pads (60,000 miles).

High, hard pedal is sticking calipers, usually rear. Will need a rebuild kit (seal and dust boot, plus cleaning) because someone put new pads on worn out rotors, the backing plate hit the antirattle spring, and the pistons stuck. The heat from the drag fried the dust boot, and the piston is now stuck from the dirt and corrosion in the upper bore. Seen it on EVERY third hand Benz I've ever looked at!

However, if you have ABS, the pedal feels "mushy" -- you get more braking effect by moving the pedal down, but it doesn't feel like you are generating more pressure -- this is normal, if somewhat strange for a while.

Peter

Peter

cscmc1 · #8 10-25-2004, 11:45 PM

Peter -- thank you for the very thoughtful reply! I appreciate your time in offering such a thorough explanation. As for the brakes... they don't do much of anything 'til just before the pedal bottoms out, and then I feel a vibration like a warped rotor. I have yet to pull the wheels to inspect pads, but I can feel a fair-sized wear groove in the rotor with my fingernail, so I am sure they'll need to be swapped out. Thanks for letting me know not to bother resurfacing! I'll flush the brake fluid too, while I'm at it. It's pretty dirty!

Thanks again,

Chris

psfred · #9 10-26-2004, 12:06 AM

Yeah, just did the TE this month while putting pads and rotors up front and pads in the back (plus a caliper rebuild). Nasty stuff, old brake fluid, nearly black.

While you have the rear wheels off, take a good look and the rubber in the rear links, special attention to the thrust (diagonal, bottom of wheel carrier to subframe) and torque links (upper center of wheel carrier to subframe, diagonal inward). Any signs of bushings out of center, tears, or shreds of rubber (or worse, hunks) sticking out, and it's time for new ones.

The multilink suspension uses the rubber in the bushings as part of the spring -- the center sleeve is locked down by the mouting bolt and the rubber flexes as the suspension moves.

When the rubber goes bad, the rear wheels no longer go straigh up and down, they 'steer' with side forces. The 300D aquired terrible torque steer (to the left under acceleration, right on decleration if I remember correctly), wandered badly, and cornered badly until I replaced the torque and thrust links. Torque link had a bout half an inch of play.

Another easy way to check is to jack the rear up, set the parking brake, and put a 17mm socket on a breaker bar. Apply rotating force to a lug bolt -- if the tire moves back and forth under rotating pressure on the bolt, replace thrust and torque links.

As I said, this cure a number of ills, including a noisy rear suspension, floating sensations, etc.

Take a peek at the four subrame mounts back there, too -- if bad, they do much the same things, just less. Put them on the "to do someday" list.

Peter

cscmc1 · #10 10-26-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred

Yeah, just did the TE this month while putting pads and rotors up front and pads in the back (plus a caliper rebuild). Nasty stuff, old brake fluid, nearly black.

While you have the rear wheels off, take a good look and the rubber in the rear links, special attention to the thrust (diagonal, bottom of wheel carrier to subframe) and torque links (upper center of wheel carrier to subframe, diagonal inward). Any signs of bushings out of center, tears, or shreds of rubber (or worse, hunks) sticking out, and it's time for new ones.

The multilink suspension uses the rubber in the bushings as part of the spring -- the center sleeve is locked down by the mouting bolt and the rubber flexes as the suspension moves.

When the rubber goes bad, the rear wheels no longer go straigh up and down, they 'steer' with side forces. The 300D aquired terrible torque steer (to the left under acceleration, right on decleration if I remember correctly), wandered badly, and cornered badly until I replaced the torque and thrust links. Torque link had a bout half an inch of play.

Another easy way to check is to jack the rear up, set the parking brake, and put a 17mm socket on a breaker bar. Apply rotating force to a lug bolt -- if the tire moves back and forth under rotating pressure on the bolt, replace thrust and torque links.

As I said, this cure a number of ills, including a noisy rear suspension, floating sensations, etc.

Take a peek at the four subrame mounts back there, too -- if bad, they do much the same things, just less. Put them on the "to do someday" list.

Peter

Thanks for your help, Peter! I'm always amazed at how much time people will take to type out such helpful and detailed replies. It is certainly appreciated.

Another dumb question: are rotors typically priced each or in pairs? I see Brembo cross-drilled rotors on Ebay for $99/pr, and online they're generally $45-70 for regular to performance rotors; I'm assuming those are priced each, as that's about what I had to pay for Saab rotors a year or so ago. I'm so used to paying next to nothing for Mustang parts that I really don't even know what's reasonable!

Thanks,

Chris

Jim Anderson · #11 10-26-2004, 04:30 PM

Shocks: look into Boge's
Rotors: Click on "Fastlane" at the top of this page.

cscmc1 · #12 10-26-2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Anderson

Shocks: look into Boge's
Rotors: Click on "Fastlane" at the top of this page.

Thanks, Jim. I did find the rotor pricing, but unless I'm overlooking something VERY obvious, I can't tell whether the price is per pair or each.

psfred · #13 10-26-2004, 07:55 PM

Assume they are priced each unless specifically stated otherwise.

Don't bother with drilled rotors, they crack badly in street use and reduce braking in normal use (they are better in racing applications because they reduce weight and maybe dissipate heat better -- you are not, I suspect, making repeated stops from 100+ mile per hour every three or four minutes).

Another note -- the car has ABS, and very hard braking will activate it. It shows up only as a pulsation in the pedal, quite similar to warped rotors on dry pavement. On ice and snow, it's much more noticable because it happens at very light brake applications sometimes. You may get some groaning on dry pavement, too.

That means you may not need brakes yet -- take a look it's easy to tell how much pad there is.

Peter