Just a general observation..... my 95 E320 hasn't had a major issue in the last two years I have owned it , but every few months its one little electrical thing or the other... causing to be stranded a few times....

Prior W210, had one major electrical problem.. guess the one major washes out the "little" electrical problems....

At the local MB dealer, every day........... a longggggggg line of MBs for service / repair... seems its always one little electrical issue or another... wheather its the a/c switch on a CLS, the air susp on an S, etc, etc....

So, I was thinking of trading up to a 01-02 CLK430 end of this year, so I asked my mech, and he said The newer MB's , its always something electrical...!?!?! WTF... He said on the newer ones, he sees less problems with the BMWs, but still have issues... as I have read here many times newer = more electrical stuff, etcc (but then we go back to my 95...not a lemon , by no means, but it has seen the shop more than my freind's '00 Focus or '02 Civic).... He said he hears less problems from clients who also drive Lexus / Infinity... (NO, I am not going there...)

That brought me to think, that even the VWs have electrical issues... I am always hearing freinds with different VW models and electrical issues (small, but annoying... )...

So what' s with the electricals on these German cars?

You could say, "just lease a newer one"... but you are still going to be plagued with little "bugs".... just that its hopefully covered under warranty then....

Thoughts?

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1995 E320 smoke silver / parchment

As much as it hurts me to say it but, you're right.
I also agree with you on the Volkswagen statement ( been there, done that ).
German electrical systems suck.
The fact that your friends 00 & 02 cars seem to have no problems may only be a temporary thing.
Give them another 5 years.
Todays cars are just too complicated, with too many gadgets to act up.

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2007 C 230 Sport.

maybe we all should consider trading our cars in for a Chevy they are pretty good these days and alot more reliable and certainly 1/2 the cost.

Hmmmm, news to me.
My circle of friends ( many of them are die-hard GM guys ) are suggesting, due to their many problems in recent years ( last 5 - 7 years ), will probably NOT buy another GM.
Transmissions, brakes, electrical problems, power accesory problems,trim falling off, etc.

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2007 C 230 Sport.

I agree. Electrical issues seem to plague every modern car.... Why?..... because the average new car buyer demands lots of features on his car for a low price.... and he gets it. Couple that with the complexity of engine control systems to meet government mandates, and you have problems waiting to happen where no problems existed before.

This will only stop when the manufacturer gets backlash from the new car buyers. Most of us here on this forum are used car buyers, so we have no audience with MB.... except for the fact that if it gets any worse, residual values of MBs will drop further, and those that lease or buy new cars will start making some noise.

Yosshimura, just like you, nearly all the problems I've had to deal with on my 95 E320 are fixing electrical "conveniences".

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95 E320 Cabriolet, 169K

My observation is the Germans have really good connectors but really poor quality circuit boards. The Japanese have (some) bad connectors but better circuit boards. The Japanese cars seem to have less electrical problems overall. Nissan might be an exception to this. They don't seem too good.

Mike

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1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

I agree with this. The connectors on my 560SL are really beefy, and they are repairable. The only problem I've had with them has been underhood connectors getting brittle, not unreasonable for a 20 year old car. But the PCB's - bad. And it's not just that they are low-quality, but they aren't supported well. ANY circuit board vibrating and not supported well to break up harmonics will eventually fail. About 15 years ago, I worked at an electronics mfr where our new hotshot mechanical engineer had actually constructed a computer animation of PCB's vibrating at certain frequencies in our products. The frequencies happened to coincide with a truck packaging test's frequencies of a simulated trip in a semitrailer. This explained why our products were winding up DOA even after taking what looked like a "safe" trip in excellent, expensive packaging. He fixed a lot of these problems with a single $0.02 screw in the PCB and a $0.05 spacer.

Now that virtually everything is surface mount, you would think that vibration resistance would get better (?). I don't know...

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86 560SL
With homebrew first gear start!
85 380SL
Daily Driver Project

http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/mercedes.htm

I agree about the Japanese cars (older models) having some of the best electrical systems. I have owned several through the years and never had an electrical issue. I did have a blown instrument cluster bulb (over the tachometer on the 86' and on the "door open" monitor on the 84') on two Accords I had - a 84' and a 86'. My old 81' Toyota Cressida had a bad relay in the fuse box that made the warning lights all illuminate (kindof like a alternator problem)- but this was a easy fix - just plugged a new one in out of a 82' Celica. Other than that- NO concerns and EVERYTHING worked perfectly.

I agree 100% with mpolli. Yes, Nissans do seem to have the most troublesome electrical out of Japanese cars, but an exception would be Mazda. They too have some electrical concerns. This is not to say that Nissan or Mazda are bad- they are actually very good on many models, but seem to have a few more concerns. At least two exceptions I know of - my dads 88' Nissan truck (251K) and grandpas 90' Mazda 929 (175K). Neither have any had any electrical problem.

Hondas and Toyotas seem to rate best in this area- again, at least the 70s thru 90s models. My Camrys (I had two 87s and a 93) and NEVER had any electrical problem. I also had a 90' Lexus LS400 and it did have a couple of issues. The passenger window switch sometimes would need to be pressed or lifted a little hard to get it to work- my radio had got to where it would only work in 60+ degree weather and then my speedometer needle light went 1/2 way out. One thing about the older Lexus cars (exception being the 90-91 ES250 with the old analog gages) had problems with the instrument cluster lights. There were several problems that could crop up, from circuit board issues to the needles burning out - ALL $$$ repairs! Mine developed the needle problem when I hit a huge pot hole one day.

The Lexus have other problems too. On the 1990-94 LS400, there is a wiring harness in the trunk near the hinge that can become damaged that can cause the interior lighting to go haywire. Mine never had this issue, but it can cause bizarre occurrences. Such as when you depress the brake, the "R" indicator on the dash will illuminate, or some warning lights will illuminate when you press the brakes, or gages go silly, etc. I have also seen some engine fire damaged LS400s, because the power steering pumps were prone to leaks - which is located directly OVER the alternator. Sometimes owners will let them go so far that the fluid shorts it out and ignites a blaze. Not always a blaze, but it does cause weird things to happen as well.

I have always heard that German cars have a lot of electrical issues and I was convinced when I bought my old 1982 BMW 733i. It was a fire waiting to happen, but a lot of it was probably from the PO. Where the radio used to be, there was a lot of bare wiring in there. The heat/AC controls did not work at all, some of the warning lights on the "check system" would stay illuminated (even when no need) and the lights in the power window switches on the console stayed illuminated ALL of the time. I had to disconnect the battery @ night. I sold this lemon within a month.

Luckily, so far, with my MB, I do not have any electrical issues, except my left rear and right front window do not work- which I think is very acceptable, considering this car is over 21 years old - not to mention a German car. I am assuming it is possibly a fuse is the issue with the windows, I have not checked it yet. Hopefully I do no jinx myself for saying that.

As far as the older AMERICAN cars go (50s thru 80s) General Motors was the best - no doubt. Ford was second and Chrysler was the worst. I have never had ANY electrical issues with any of my older GM cars in the past (60s and 70s), nor my current older GM cars. Chryslers had electrical problems galore- all through the 50s thru 90s - probably even still!

Oh good, nobody took my comments the wrong way.. hopefully no one willl. I adore these cars... when I asked my mechanic that wasn't the answer I was "looking for", lol. I was hoping he was going to give me the "secret' info, lol, "buy xx model, xx year...no problems )..........

I just don't see myself buying a lexus (prior to VW and MB, i always bought jap for reliability and "finish"... I had american b4)..... I always brag about the solid feel of the metal on MB/BMW, how the doors close like vaults, no noise on the hwy, the solid looking piece of metal on the body where the door closes and "latches".....

Hell, I even took an assignemnt for the local MB dealer in my line of work.. just to be in the enviroment.... now with all the little "issues" i see .... I know they are not as bad as the Lucas? electical from...hmm who was it Audi? but still... Even when I drove VW, it was f'n issues ...

Even if you can afford to buy/lease new you'll be at the dlr.. its the inconvinience that bothers me more than the $.... if I could pay the electical repairs as a one time "annual" fixed charge and not break down, etc... I would do it!

Someone mentioned the CLK having a component from the C... That's interesting I've wondered if they are a C class under the skin, other than powertrain, since they look similar? Can anyone confirm or not? Hell , they CLK are a $50K+ car..

Hope to read more later....

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1995 E320 smoke silver / parchment

Hi Yosshimura,
I think a lot of problems we have seen on the German cars are due to their use of lead free solder and it's greater susceptibility to "cold" solder joints and vibration related problems. The bad news is that it's use has now been mandated by the Feds, and we will most likely see a lot more problems in all the newer vehicles. I read that they still allow lead solder in critical applications, like airplanes. The Japanese cars have always used generous amounts of good 60/40 solder on their circuit boards and soldered connections, and have had much better reliability because of it. It will be interesting to see how the use of lead free solder in the computer industry works out!

Regards, Richard W.
'82 300D/4.3L V6, T700R4 conversion
'79 450SL
'75 280C

The reason for the high rate of electrical "glitches" on modern MB's is simple. Much of the vehicle wiring carries data (voltage coded or digital ). Everything from the interior lights to the heated seats is digitally controlled. In the good old days the vehicle wiring carried the LOAD. Very easy to diagnose. Todays' CAN networking systems allow more features and accessories to be built into vehicles without adding weight or taking up space. Timing issues between different components, faulty software, etc. are just some of the things that can go wrong. It reminds me of something my grandfather used to say. "The more complicated you make the plumbing, the easier it is to clog the drain".

I think people tend to overreact and over hype a lot of this stuff. If you don't want any problems with any car buy a new one with a warranty, when the warranty runs out dump it.

Certainly Lexus and Infiniti are far more trouble free then any European cars but come on they are a little boring.

Everyone says the W220 have tons of problems. The guy know who I bought my SD from has had an S430 since day one and never had a problem with it. Several other W220 owners I have talked to just drive them with a little thing coming up here and there.

W210's seem to be pretty problem free.

So far from what I have seen the most expensive car to own seems to be a Jag. My grandparants have had many and with every engine Jag has offered in the last 20 years. They all had never ending AC, electrical, and trans problems. XJ12, XJ6X3, and now an XJ8 across the board Jags are a pita.

Remember only the people who have problems come online and complain. I'd buy a CLK430 they look like nice cars. So what if you have to put a few grand into it, its a high end car thats life.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Yes. But most connectors and relays are still through hole. The problems I have had with mine were all through hole connections on cheap single sided boards. Plated through holes on the boards would add greatly to reliability. It is shocking to me that Mercedes cuts this basic corner at the expense of so many electrical problems.

Mike

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1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

The lead solder was 63/37 "eutectic". No-lead solder has been a problem because one company had a patent on the "good" formula, 99.4% tin, .6% copper. So everyone was using other alloys of silver and other things that didn't work as well. But now someone found a hole in their patent so everyone can use it. The new allow works very well. But if Mercedes keeps using cheap boards then the problems will stay, IMHO.

Mike

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1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

I don't want to argue with someone of your credentials. However in my observation, I don't recall any problems reported on this board that had to do with the CAN bus. But lots of problems with burned up relays, boards and bad solder joints. (and also the biodegradable wire...). However as a Mercedes tech, maybe you see more of these software problems with the new ones "out of the box".

Mike

__________________
1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra