R-12 in Boston area? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

michael cole · #16 09-15-2009, 02:36 PM

i guess everyone has forgotten the basic issue here.R12 EATS HOLES IN THE OZONE LAYER!reason enough for not using it.be responsible to the rest of the human race

#17 09-15-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah-kay

I respect that you are a professional A/C engineer and I am only an amateur, but there are holes in your post.

1) You assume an EPA license to buy R-12. That may be a non-recurrence costs but it is a cost nonethess and is not included in your $45.
2) The rusting through of the evaporator may or may not be caused by the conversion, unless it was replaced when the conversion WAS done. The damage may be already there for an old car.
3) The same argumment is applicable to the cause of black death of the compressor after conversion.
4) Unless compressor/evaperator were replaced when the conversion was done, all this corrosion or black death were moot. They cannot be scientifically proven unless you have a 'control'.
5) Bingo means cold air. The sky is the limit to flush/change out hardware/redesigning to R134a./bigger condenser etc.
6) This is not a how low can you go issue but what can be achieved as an amateur. I can cut more costs if necessary, like no o-ring or receiver/drier change. Or just get a conversion kit from an Auto Shop.

1) Okay, so add the $15 for the license to my total and then add $15 for flushing agent to yours. I do hope that you were planning on a complete flush of all oil before putting in your Ester.

2) The potential evaporator leak that I refer to would be due to the fact that R134a is so much more prone to developing acid when combined with moisture than is R12. This is not a myth or speculation, this is documented fact. To compensate for this, use a REALLY GOOD vacuum pump and evacuate overnight and you MIGHT prevent the corrosion factor. That said, how many DIYers have that kind of vacuum pump?

3) Black Death is no more or less common with conversions than with unconverted systems AS LONG AS the system is flushed of the mineral oil and an oil is used that will properly circulate with the 134. Black Death is not acid induced. In fact it is a much more common phenomenon with certain compressors with particular seal materials. It really doesn't play into the conversion equation very much.

4) The data I refer to, compared converted systems and their life span after conversion, to repaired systems retaining the use of R12 after service at similar points in the vehicles lives. Statistically the system retaining R12 lived a very long time before further service was needed, while the average 134 conversion went 2 years.

5) In your original post, bingo in context sounded as if you meant that all you had to do was buy the items in your list, charge the system and "bingo." My point was that there was much more labor involved in your conversion than what you indicated. You WERE considering a thorough conversion including flushing WERE'NT you? So as not to compare oranges to apples, it should be understand that whether a conversion was or was not done, any other problems with the system had to be corrected regardless of refrigerant choice.

6) The economics of this is NOT about doing it as cheaply as possible. If you want to do that, just evacuate the system and charge it with R134a. You do that and in most cases you will have cold air right away. The issue is doing something that will live. Assuming that the system in question has no other problems (which is Eutopian since if there were no other problems you wouldn't be working on it anyway) then recharging with R12 will cost only the amount for the R12. All your conversion costs are out of the equation.

The scenarios that REALLY blow me away are those where someone goes and spends $1,000 or more to convert to 134. The end result is a system that is statistically shorter lived and does not cool as well. The $1,000 or whatever it turns out to be, is spent so that they can save $30 or $40 on refrigerant. I guess I'm old enough that I learned a different kind of math such that I can't understand how that is economical.

#18 09-15-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael cole

i guess everyone has forgotten the basic issue here.R12 EATS HOLES IN THE OZONE LAYER!reason enough for not using it.be responsible to the rest of the human race

Let's assume for a moment that R12 really is that nasty to the Ozone layer and assume that the loss of the Ozone layer is indeed due to the release of R12. To begin with the vast majority of the R12 that has reached the air has been from aerosol cans BEFORE such propellants were outlawed. It was a relatively small percentage that came from auto a/c systems.

The number of vehicles left on the road today that were originally designed for R12 is a VERY small percentage of the vehicles on the road. In the overall scheme of things, the amount of R12 that will go into these cars in the coming years is MINISCULE as a percentage of all refrigerant pumped into the cars using 134. It's not as if 134 is totally clean. It emits about 10% the amount of what you consider the poison components of R12.

It's a numbers game that with every passing day is moving in favor of you Green folks. Every single day, bunches and bunches of the cars that use R12 are hitting the wrecking yards where the refrigerant is recovered.

Believe it or not, the fact that I continue to use R12 in cars that were designed for it will not matter one iota as to whether or not there is global warming. BTW, I have an R12 Recovery/Recycle machine and handle the stuff responsibly.

Also, are you aware that the temperature since 2006 in the US has actually DECREASED? Those who preach global warming are basing their theories on only about 100 years of data. How long has the Earth been here?

ah-kay · #19 09-15-2009, 05:30 PM

LarryBible, thanks for your enlightenment. I know there is a lot of knowledge on A/C and can get expensive if taken to a shop. What I am trying to point out is that most DIYers can also do it cheaply and effectively with minimum tools. I have gauges, vacuum pump ( all Harbor Freight stuffs ) to help my conversion. I would not spend $1000 on a A/C, R12 or R134a, as that would equate to the purchase price of the car or a big chunk of it. The other issue is that most shops would not do R12 and the owners are left with little choice, either do it themselves or have the cars converted by the shop for $$$.

I always have good results with conversion in a number of cars, 4 in total including a Volvo 240 and my project MBZs. May be my expectation is lower than yours because I do not expect it to be super cold or maintanence free for the next 10 years. It is like topping up engine oil every 1000 miles for $4 than to fix every minutes leaks or overhaul the engine.

whunter · #20 09-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardM98

Obtaining an EPA license when you don't understand air conditioning technology and then using it to obtain refrigerant which is supposed to be used only by a licensed technician is a fraud. It is defrauding the licensed technician or the shop they work for.

As I said yesterday at 2:03PM

"If you plan to keep the car, I would suggest having it professionally converted to R-134. You probably won't notice the slight loss of efficiency in your climate (Boston)."

Perhaps you could come up with something original?

Now, it's time to move on to something more productive.

Obtaining an EPA license = you become a licensed technician = no fraud.
The government has not yet taken away our right to work on our own cars.

When you can buy R12, and service the A/C system yourself, there is no reason to convert to R134.

280EZRider · #21 09-15-2009, 06:14 PM

I'll just mention just 2 points and move on, as all this AC banter has been repeated numerous times in earlier threads.

#1 R12 is not difficult to find. (Mineral oil campatible w/R12 is. But thanks to fellow member, Mark DiSilvestro, I have finally found it at CarQuest).

#2 If R12 is so bad, why does Dupont have a contract with the federal government to continue supplying the US Navy with R12 for its entire fleet?

TOPGUN · #22 09-15-2009, 11:10 PM

Stay with R-12. All of the good reasons have already been stated.

riorust · #23 09-16-2009, 12:25 AM

If you have a sound (re;tight) R12 system and just need maintenance, stay with R12 and get a system that works as well as it should by design. If your system is shot, ie; evaporator, compressor, and needs a complete rebuild, maybe an alternative is in order.

Back in the eighties I used to be employed in the res/comm HVAC industry, in those days, we used to "dump" a system by opening a Schrader valve and waiting until the noise stopped, before closing a valve and starting the evacuation process. We had no clue it was not a good thing to do.

Keeping an older R12 system working the way it was designed to is not illegal or un-ethical in any way. It is a good use of materials and resources, recycling or rebuilding is always less expensive than re-manufacturing, at least on a one off production.

#24 09-16-2009, 07:05 AM

I don't understand why components in need of replacement have anything to do with what refrigerant is chosen. If a component needs replacing, it needs replacing and that's that. How does that have anything to do with refrigerant choice?