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  #1  
Old 09-14-2009, 01:40 PM
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R-12 in Boston area?

Anyone know where I might get my AC charged near Boston Ma.
  #2  
Old 09-14-2009, 06:03 PM
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R-12 has been illegal for some time now. Also, AC techs with the correct recovery and refill equipment have let the equipment go since there's no business for it. If you find someone who says they can charge your system beware of what they might put in.

If you plan to keep the car, I would suggest having it professionally converted to R-134. You probably won't notice the slight loss of efficiency in your climate (Boston).

Good luck.
  #3  
Old 09-14-2009, 06:14 PM
LarryBible
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R12 is NOT illegal, repeat NOT illegal! The laws in some of the liberal areas have made it increasingly more difficult and expensive to deal with it, but it's not Cyanide!

If you can't find a shop to deal with it, you can go on line and get an EPA license for $15 and purchase R12 for about $15 to $20 per pound.
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Old 09-14-2009, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post
R12 is NOT illegal, repeat NOT illegal! The laws in some of the liberal areas have made it increasingly more difficult and expensive to deal with it, but it's not Cyanide!

If you can't find a shop to deal with it, you can go on line and get an EPA license for $15 and purchase R12 for about $15 to $20 per pound.
It is illegal to manufacture. What you are referring to is that there is some still floating around and if the shop has the correct equipment they can service the system. That's not illegal.

It is irresponsible to buy R12 fraudulently on eBay and they try to charge the system without the correct set of gauges and recovery system.

Not cyanide? Try ingesting a lb and see if the effect is different.
  #5  
Old 09-15-2009, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardM98 View Post
It is illegal to manufacture. .
Still made in good ole USA by Airesol in Neodesha, KS. They buy the R-12 from RACON in Wichita.
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2009, 12:46 PM
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Talking R 12 questions

Well, I'm going to put my .02 cents in here. I always question why SOME people are always quick to modify a system from its original design and then suffer the consequences, often, unfavorable. The Mercedes Benz a/c system will NOT function as designed when converted from R12 to R134. As all the real mechanics and technical people on this site know, it just doesn't work AS DESIGNED. I have had NO problem with getting my R12 system charged/repaired at my local dealer. They have the equipment and expertise to maintain this sytem as it was intended to operate. R12 IS available for sale and as mentioned in earlier post, it is not illegal to use. I think the last 5 years it has cost me about $135 each time I needed to charge the system for the hot summers here in Texas. I purchased a 30lb bottle of R12 for $150 this spring and am now able to charge my system. I replaced all of the hoses and o-rings in the system, installed a new receiver/dryer and expension valve and can chill my beer and fog my glasses rather quickly now. Other members in the local MB club that HAVE converted, when pressed, will state that "it's not the same but close" about their conversion to 134. If you can't afford to do it right, maybe youcan't afford the car! Just my thoughts, not everyone will agree. BTW, '91 300E, 189K with the ORIGINAL a/c compressor AND R12!! BRRR, its COLD!
  #7  
Old 09-15-2009, 01:04 PM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hall View Post
Well, I'm going to put my .02 cents in here. I always question why SOME people are always quick to modify a system from its original design and then suffer the consequences, often, unfavorable. The Mercedes Benz a/c system will NOT function as designed when converted from R12 to R134. As all the real mechanics and technical people on this site know, it just doesn't work AS DESIGNED. I have had NO problem with getting my R12 system charged/repaired at my local dealer. They have the equipment and expertise to maintain this sytem as it was intended to operate. R12 IS available for sale and as mentioned in earlier post, it is not illegal to use. I think the last 5 years it has cost me about $135 each time I needed to charge the system for the hot summers here in Texas. I purchased a 30lb bottle of R12 for $150 this spring and am now able to charge my system. I replaced all of the hoses and o-rings in the system, installed a new receiver/dryer and expension valve and can chill my beer and fog my glasses rather quickly now. Other members in the local MB club that HAVE converted, when pressed, will state that "it's not the same but close" about their conversion to 134. If you can't afford to do it right, maybe youcan't afford the car! Just my thoughts, not everyone will agree. BTW, '91 300E, 189K with the ORIGINAL a/c compressor AND R12!! BRRR, its COLD!

My compliments on a very good and thoughtful post based on logic and first hand experience!


Enough time has gone by since the practice of converting away from R12 started, for lots of data to be gathered. Conversion of an R12 system to R134a has not proven to be a good and economical strategy. Lots of FACTS to back this up.

In the political fringe states where R12 has been made very difficult to obtain or service, conversion is sometimes the only alternative. For those of us in states where it not only gets hotter 'n blue blazes, but also some semblance of political sanity remains, we are at least capable of staying comfortable in our older cars.
  #8  
Old 09-15-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hall View Post
Well, I'm going to put my .02 cents in here. I always question why SOME people are always quick to modify a system from its original design and then suffer the consequences, often, unfavorable. The Mercedes Benz a/c system will NOT function as designed when converted from R12 to R134. As all the real mechanics and technical people on this site know, it just doesn't work AS DESIGNED. I have had NO problem with getting my R12 system charged/repaired at my local dealer. They have the equipment and expertise to maintain this sytem as it was intended to operate. R12 IS available for sale and as mentioned in earlier post, it is not illegal to use. I think the last 5 years it has cost me about $135 each time I needed to charge the system for the hot summers here in Texas. I purchased a 30lb bottle of R12 for $150 this spring and am now able to charge my system. I replaced all of the hoses and o-rings in the system, installed a new receiver/dryer and expension valve and can chill my beer and fog my glasses rather quickly now. Other members in the local MB club that HAVE converted, when pressed, will state that "it's not the same but close" about their conversion to 134. If you can't afford to do it right, maybe youcan't afford the car! Just my thoughts, not everyone will agree. BTW, '91 300E, 189K with the ORIGINAL a/c compressor AND R12!! BRRR, its COLD!
You are only stating the FACT. A car designed for R12 obviously is NOT designed for R134a. Am I missing something as an engineer or as a layman? As for myself, I would not hestitate to convert my MBZ to R134a. I have done all mine for under $50 each if no new h/w ( i.e. compressor, condensor etc ) need to be replaced. The breakdown is below for retail, not wholesale prices:

1) Ester Oil 8oz $10
2) New receiver drier, it varies. $12-25
3) 3 cans of R134a $21
4) O-rings $4
5) Bingo - you have cold air. I find it good enough in San Diego. I don't know what they were like with R12 as the MBZs had non functional A/C when I bought them. If it is good in San Diego then it probably is good enough in Boston.

my $50.02.
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  #9  
Old 09-14-2009, 08:21 PM
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Is there a way to check for leaks before I decide what to use?
  #10  
Old 09-14-2009, 09:35 PM
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If you can find someone with the proper equipment, you would evacuate the system using R-12 gauges and a recovery tank. Then pull a full vacuum and see if it holds (overnight is best, 4-5 hrs is okay). When recharging the system, you can add a dye. However, most newer compressor oils have the dye in the formulation.
  #11  
Old 09-15-2009, 08:26 AM
LarryBible
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I DID NOT suggest buying R12 FRAUDULENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said, go online, get an EPA license and then purchase it on ebay. This is COMPLETELY legal.

You DID NOT say in your original post that it was ILLEGAL TO MANUFACTURE. You said that R12 was ILLEGAL. That implies that it is illegal to purchase and charge an a/c with R12.

ADDITIONALLY you DO NOT "evacuate the system with R12 gauges and a recovery tank." That is RECOVERING the refrigerant. Evacuation is the operation of drawing a vacuum on the system and is a separate operation from recovery.

Also it is not a matter of remaining R12 that might be "lying around." There is plenty of it available from multiple sources. With the EPA license it is totally legal to purchase all that you can afford.

Most refrigerant oils DO NOT come with UV dye included. The dye can be easily added, and oil charges with dye are available.

You need to get your facts straight before posting information.


OP,

There are several methods that can be used to perform leak inspection. If there is any refrigerant left in the system at all, most any auto a/c shop can use an electronic leak detector to search for leaks. This doesn't take very long, so the charge is minimal.

If the system still has enough pressure, you can use a soapy substance to look for bubbles, but this is my least favorite approach.

A properly equipped shop can legally put in a couple of ounces of R22, pressurize the system with Nitrogen and then check with an electronic leak detector. This is usually used for really difficult to find leaks.

If a system has a slow leak it is practical to charge the system and add UV dye. Then after running the system, use a UV light to look for leaks.

All of these methods have their pluses and minuses and the method used is usually detected by the equipment available.

Also there is a fellow that is a common poster on the aircondition.com forum who happens to be in Boston. He might be able to point you to a shop that can deal with R12. Also, since you're in MA where it doesn't get all that hot, a 134 conversion might be what you have to resort to.
  #12  
Old 09-15-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post
I DID NOT suggest buying R12 FRAUDULENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said, go online, get an EPA license and then purchase it on ebay. This is COMPLETELY legal.
Obtaining an EPA license when you don't understand air conditioning technology and then using it to obtain refrigerant which is supposed to be used only by a licensed technician is a fraud. It is defrauding the licensed technician or the shop they work for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post

Also, since you're in MA where it doesn't get all that hot, a 134 conversion might be what you have to resort to.
As I said yesterday at 2:03PM

"If you plan to keep the car, I would suggest having it professionally converted to R-134. You probably won't notice the slight loss of efficiency in your climate (Boston)."

Perhaps you could come up with something original?

Now, it's time to move on to something more productive.
  #13  
Old 09-15-2009, 12:56 PM
LarryBible
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Originally Posted by RichardM98 View Post
Obtaining an EPA license when you don't understand air conditioning technology and then using it to obtain refrigerant which is supposed to be used only by a licensed technician is a fraud. It is defrauding the licensed technician or the shop they work for.



As I said yesterday at 2:03PM

"If you plan to keep the car, I would suggest having it professionally converted to R-134. You probably won't notice the slight loss of efficiency in your climate (Boston)."

Perhaps you could come up with something original?

Now, it's time to move on to something more productive.


To begin with, please explain how LEGALLY obtaining an EPA license and LEGALLY purchasing the necessary refrigerant is DEFRAUDING a shop or anyone else!

Secondly, I offered 134 conversion as a LAST RESORT, not as a first suggestion as did you. My main point in this portion of my posts is that if one MUST resort to an alternative refrigerant, R134a is all that I would suggest.

Helping this gentlemen get the best performing a/c that he can get sounds pretty productive to me. If you would rather spend this thread debating the ridiculous phasing out of a very good refrigerant we can go there if you like. It's a pretty good example of some of the thinking that has driven your State into bankruptcy.
  #14  
Old 09-15-2009, 05:52 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM98 View Post
Obtaining an EPA license when you don't understand air conditioning technology and then using it to obtain refrigerant which is supposed to be used only by a licensed technician is a fraud. It is defrauding the licensed technician or the shop they work for.

As I said yesterday at 2:03PM

"If you plan to keep the car, I would suggest having it professionally converted to R-134. You probably won't notice the slight loss of efficiency in your climate (Boston)."

Perhaps you could come up with something original?

Now, it's time to move on to something more productive.
Obtaining an EPA license = you become a licensed technician = no fraud.
The government has not yet taken away our right to work on our own cars.

When you can buy R12, and service the A/C system yourself, there is no reason to convert to R134.
  #15  
Old 09-15-2009, 06:14 PM
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I'll just mention just 2 points and move on, as all this AC banter has been repeated numerous times in earlier threads.

#1 R12 is not difficult to find. (Mineral oil campatible w/R12 is. But thanks to fellow member, Mark DiSilvestro, I have finally found it at CarQuest).

#2 If R12 is so bad, why does Dupont have a contract with the federal government to continue supplying the US Navy with R12 for its entire fleet?
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