500E is pulling/steering to the right: revisted, new info
 

Alright, the 500E still has its pulling and steering to the right problem after 7 months now.

It was in an accident, as some/most of you know, just to give you a little background on where the problem originated

Ever since, depending on the speed, the car will blatently steer to the right. If its 30-mph it will pull after like 100 feet. If its 60+mph it'll start steering 50 feet heavy. It feels like it wants to pull you right off the road.

It's basically been out of my hands for 7 months now as it has bounced back and forth to about 3 different body shops and 4 diff alignment specialists.

I can tell you right now its NOT a frame problem. It's been on 4 different frame machines and the frame is to the milimeter.

As for what else has been replaced, i could post all 4 pages of replacements if needed, but i'll check the sheets as people give off suggestions.

Both struts were replaced in the front. The whole left and right suspension was replaced. As far as that goes, shocks and everything.

It's been on every alignment machine and it meets alignment specs and still pulls, that is what puzzles every mechanic.

I just want to know if anyone with a 500E has had this problem. Or anyone with a W124 for that matter I guess.

Sure you can tell me "once it's in an accident, some things will just never be the same" or "it's probably as good as its going to get" That's not what I want to hear. I'd appreciate people staying away from responses like that. The accident was not my fault and it hurts to hear people say that your car will never be the same...though it might not be :P

At any rate...

We had a personal friend of the family who was an old mechanic come over and throw his two cents down for free. He gave a good suggestion.

We raised the right side probably a couple centimeters above the lefts level by raising the right sides tire pressure from 40 to 47 (50psi max) and taking air out of the left side tires, 40 down to 37psi. Making a 10psi difference between the left and the right.

With the right side now up slightly higher than it was before, merely centimeters, the pulling nearly depleted completly. It's hard to tell though, some roads are straight some roads slant for water reasons and rain. But 60+mph she wasn't yanking away from me.

I'm running on EVOII wheels with Michillin Pilot Sport A/S 245/45/17 all around.

I've tried rotating the wheels and tires...didn't help.

The right side back end was hit, nearly dead on the corner. I hear the rear suspension on a 500E is adjustable...but doesn't it seem like it would be the front right? I don't want to overlook anything...

Anyways guys, I'd really appreciate any feedback again. Throw suggestions at me, and I can check the papers of whats been replaced and repaired. I just really want to get her back running correctly. Thanks tons for all your help.

There is nothing wrong with the front end, and sadly, there never was. You've replaced lots of parts for nothing.

Your REAR wheel on the right side is out of alignment. Probably a bent subframe, but even that shouldn't prevent getting the alignment correct. Rears can be adjusted for camber and toe-in, and if they are off, the car will pull rather badly.

Have a proper four wheel alignment done by an MB shop. Have them check the condition off ALL the rear links -- dollar to a doughnut, something ain't right back there. Have them set the front toe with a proper spreader bar, too -- if they don't, it won't be right, and you will have excessive sensitivity to crosswinds.

Peter

You mean insurance has replaced a lot of parts for nothing :o

nothings never for nothing ;)

but...the subframe was completely replaced. I'd imagine it was properly replaced. Probably over 15 4-wheel alignments were done between 2 MB dealers.

Thanks for the info on the rear end. I think a lot of places have been concentrating their time and effort in to the front right side of the car. Though I could be wrong, I don't watch them do the work though I do grill them on what was done.

Can anyone else second/backup this info or give more insight on the back end or insight to any of this problem?

thanks tons again fred, EVERY little bit of info helps

I'd love to know how they did a proper 4-wheel alignment and the car still pulls to the right UNLESS the frame is out of alignment vertically (one corner higher than the other three). Even that ought to be obvious, and I cannot imagine an MB dealer service department releasing a know problem car with the problem still there WITHOUT telling you, or well, with my experience with MB dealer, I can. Take it to a good independent shop, they are sometimes better. A very good body shop with experience in frame straightening might be even better.

Lowering tire pressure on one side in the front having that much effect makes me thing something still isn't correct.

Peter

I did the tire pressure to both sides on all 4 tires, not just the front right or front in general, but...

Let me give you a general idea of the first MB dealership I delt with. It sat in the shop for 2 weeks. In the two weeks, all they did was rotate the wheels and tires and try to blame it on my getting bigger wheels (the EVOs). When I get the car back from their shop:

I had a dent in my rear quarter panel that was NOT there when it went up there. I complained and they said it must have happened on my ride home so they wouldn't fix it. The 4 brand new wheels had curb rash on them and deep scratches here and there. (disheartening) The idiot didn't pull the brake lane back far enough and my wheel ate it away and i lost my brakes completely at 60mph on the freeway.

I had such a mouthful for them that I just won't get in to here. They deserve to be shot. Not to mention they "inspected" the car before I got it back. I'm not talking about "hey look at the car and make sure everything is cool before i get it back." I'm talking about state inspection. They could loose their license for that.

I can't get in to it...i'll start to want to flip out again. Anyways...back to the current dillema...

hedpe

You compensated for a pull to the right that increases with speed by increasing tire pressure bias right to left with a difference of 10 PSI .... questions:

-Tire tread depths .... they are similiar on each axel?

-Brake pads: Have you specifically had the pads checked for unusual rapid wear compared to the rest of the brake pads? I am thinking the right-rear brake caliper/pad problem.

-Were all those alignments done on modern electronic alignment racks with the mirrors attached to all four wheels?

-Are any of the wheel sensors (ABS) damaged? When you turn on your ignition switch, do all the lights illuminate? (Prior to starting the engine). It is an old and pathetic trick to disconnect a dash bulb after not being able to repair the reason for the light being illuminated.

-I suspect there are also other odd things happening as well since the accident. Are there other items you have not mentioned? Any?

I am very curious about this, keep us posted,

Haasman

You mention the suspension components were replaced, does that include the bushings?

You might also want to try the tire pressure test specifically to the front and then to the rear to isolate the problem.

I second the suggestion to find a professional independent alignment shop with the latest equipment to check alignment. The MB shops in my area don't have the latest and greatest equipment and can only do so much when it comes to aligment and wheel balancing. Ask for before and after alignment figures, most good shops will print them out. If you post the numbers I can compare them to mine and let you know if anything is off.

Don't overlook rear problems. Maybe one brake is dragging or the e-brake is sticking. I have a simliar problem. My car seems to pull left slightly with new MXV4 on new dealer rims. The car feels like its going crooked unless I put snows on the rear, then it seems better. With all MXV4+ front & rear the handling is sloppy. When I find out why I'll let you know. Simply rotating the rear tires and front tires around does not seem to change the problem...

Alright I'm going to try to go through each of these as best as I can...

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Tire tread depths .... they are similiar on each axel?
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All 4 tires have under 700 miles on them, got them with the new wheels


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Brake pads: Have you specifically had the pads checked for unusual rapid wear compared to the rest of the brake pads? I am thinking the right-rear brake caliper/pad problem.
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have not specifically asked for the pads to be checked, they were replaced after the accident. Anythings a possibility at this point. The only thing is, to check for a break problem, I don't know if this does it. But with the pulling, if its pulling, and i hit the break, it does not pull harder. I don't want to say it stops pulling when I hit the breaks, but, it lessens. I could be wrong though, I havn't gotten to drive it for a month because its been in the shops. I will take it out again today and give you a for sure what happens when I hit the brakes.

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Were all those alignments done on modern electronic alignment racks with the mirrors attached to all four wheels?
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In the most recent shop it was at, it was done on a new alignment rack.

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Are any of the wheel sensors (ABS) damaged? When you turn on your ignition switch, do all the lights illuminate? (Prior to starting the engine). It is an old and pathetic trick to disconnect a dash bulb after not being able to repair the reason for the light being illuminated.
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Just ran downstairs to check, all of the lights come on.

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I suspect there are also other odd things happening as well since the accident. Are there other items you have not mentioned?
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There really aren't any more problems other than a leaking front seal on the tranny. It had a bunch of other problems like engine mounts and subframe. But a lot was replaced. The only remaining problems is the tranny leak and a squeeking coming from my left front side. The only thing is this problem just started from getting it back from the shop two days ago. I had the car for 2 weeks before it went up to that shop and it never squeeked. It sounds like rubber is hitting metal or metal is scraping, like something loose. I don't think it's related to the pull, as it didn't do it for the 6 months while it was pulling, and just came up now. If anyone has any suggestions on that one ;) It's squeeking around the front left fender area. It's not a break squeel, it doesn't do it when i hit the brakes, it does it when i hit a bump. It's a quick, 1/4 second, loud squeek.

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You mention the suspension components were replaced, does that include the bushings?
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Here is what I have on my repairs/replacement sheet as far as suspension:
Subframe
Mount/Bushing to Sub frame Sleves
LT Knuckle
LT Thrust arm
LT Front arm, strut upper (is this the whole front left strut?)
LT Control arm
LT Tie rod assy
LT Camber kit hardware kit
LT Lower cover
LT Control arm bushing kit
LT Lateral rod hardware kit
LT Thrust arm hardware kit
LT Lateral rod
LT Link to control arm
LT Torsion bar bracket
LT Outer boot
CV Clamp
Flange Gasket
O/H frt susp lt
LT suspensions assy for Wheelho...
LT Knuckle 500E
LT Lower cntrl arm 500E
Lt Steering arm 500E
Lt Joint cam bolt screw
Check and Measure Rear Suspension
LT Tie rod assy (again?)

and since this insurance supplement report, I was told the right side strut was replaced, I'm going to get a new supplement faxed to me...but that's everything on the report that I saw that deals with suspension.

I will also try isolating the problem by switching the tire pressure from front to back one at a time.

You guys don't know how much I appreciate this, thanks.

Down home we've got some excellent custom alignment shops where people go when they've had their car lifted or lowered or put special wheels on the car. These people claim to straighten anything and they can. They use "older than time" Hunter Lite-A-Line machine that uses light beams. No computers. They are able to fix problem case cars that the dealers don't have a clue about. High tech equipment is not necessary to solve your problem. Understanding of alignment and geometry is necessary. I'd try to find one of those guys. They may offer additional insight.

HTH,

Hedpe, in reading your posts, I'm starting to get the uncomfortable feeling that you've been ripped off by some shops.

Over the years, and after some unfortunate experiences with dealers, etc., I've adopted the following policy: Nobody touches my car without me being there and watching.

I've had a few shops that wanted me to wait in the customer service area. I've said no. It's my car, and my life and the lives of my loved ones depend upon it's condition. I tell them I'd be happy to sign a waiver (insurance), if they'd like, and if that won't work, I'll go someplace else. Most relent, and I watch. When they don't relent, I walk out and breathe a sigh of relief. Bad experiences have led me to conclude that if they don't want me watching, they're either bad mechanics or are up to no good.

Now then, I'd go back to the four-wheel alignment suggestion. And while the car is on the hoist, and while you're watching, have the alignment guy check to make sure all of the parts that were supposed to be replaced were, in fact, replaced. And if some weren't, then that may indicate the problem area.

There is a logical explanation, so hang in there. You just have to connect with a smart and honest mechanic.

hedpe,
were the same tires on the car before you had all that major body work done to your car ? this way atleast we can eliminate the possiblity of the tires being the factor.
more over i've had to go to 3 different dealers and about 4 other shops and alteast 2 visits each to finally have the alignment right on my 300E so it comes of no surprise that the shops probably haven't done their job right. find out a reputable private shop who does alignments. Even if that's not the case, just go back to the last place you got the alignment done and have them give you a print out of the alighnment with before/after readings. and post it here in the forum. I've seen the pros here give great advice after taking a peek at those readings.
I can tell from experience that bad alignment totally ruins the fun of driving and I can't stand having to pull the car back on track constantly. either the tires or the alignment. so worry not ! it's just a matter of which tech can get it done 'right'!
good luck !

there are many bad shops out there, unfortunately i experienced one that could have put me in another accident. It's just that when the car is in the shop for 2 months, you can't sit there and watch everything after an accident. I guess I just have to try and find this problem.

There were different tires on the car when the body work was done. There were Pirelli 245/50/16's on during the body work. I don't believe it was alligned until the new wheels and tires were put on the car because 2 of the wheels were badly cracked, but good enough to get it around in the shop while it was worked on.

I'm going to call the shop now and ask them to fax over the alignment readings from the last alignment done. Hopefully they have some kind of files there.

The guy at the shop is backed up helping someone right now, he's going to fax over all the paper work by the end of the day, if not tomorrow morning.

keep the suggestions coming guys

i once got a new set of tires that the moment i had them mounted and installed caused the car to pull to one side. i asked the tire shop to re-check everything since nothing had been changed aside from the tires and the car never pulled to the side before. i got it back and the problem seemed to have disappeared. during a routine check i discovered that they had pumped up the tires on one side to counteract the pulling! i lived with it for a while until i finally traded the car in not too long afterward. it was definitely the tires and had i insisted i might have gotten them replaced as defects...

Always write down the milage on the car, in front of the service writer, when you take your car to the dealer. The "kids" in the service department were driving it on dates, and damaged both the wheels and the fender, and the dealership, not MB, owes you recompense.

Writing the milage down, rather ostentatiosly, usually puts and end to this crap, If there is more two miles or so difference when you pick the car up, demand both usage fees and repairs of any damage you claim. The service workers are NOT entitled to use your car for personal use, not even to go pick up lunch "on a test drive" without your permission.

Get to a good independent shop. Any shop, dealer or otherwise, that damages a car and won't make good before even telling you is doing the same kind of work on your car -- crap.

Hans had to have a fender repaired and painted once on short notice when a car rolled and dented a customers -- told the customer about it on delivery. Shop insurance usually takes care of it, but the shop is liable for any damage they do through carelessness.

Peter

hedpe,
now that you mention that the tires were changed after the bodywork it leads me to rethink the scenerio. I've had michelins put on by sears once. they were the pilots. and right after i drove out of the shop with the new tires the car started to pull to the right like crazy. i knew it had to be the tires since it was just fine before i got them changed. sears wouldnt agree with me but i finally spoke to their manager and had them switch the brand to dunlop to test out the hypothesis. as soon as the dunlops were put on the car was going strraight again. during the arguments, they tried to rotate and move the michelins every possible way but nothing changed the pull to the right.
so at the end i would really suggest trying to put two different tires atleast in the front. could be temporarily . could be worn/old. but that will eliminate the cause and then would give u a better understanding of whether it's the alignment or the tires.
at instances i've had the dealer rotate the tires in the past and the car started pulling. so now i've asked them to leave the tires where the are. i guess it's the terrible quality control of the tire manufacturers these days that leads to situations like these for customers. !

Get the numbers for caster on the front, too -- these are strut type suspension, and if the strut bearing is installed funny, they will track funny.

I had a damaged subframe on my K-car, and it pulled until if failed the Canadian inspection and I had to replace the subframe (quite a feat, manuall tranny subs were almost impossible to find). Fixed the problem, the alignment shop told me the couldn't get one wheel right up front. No kidding, it was cracked in two places and bent to boot!

Peter

Alright guys, I got the alignment measurements faxed over. I don't have a scanner, and the fax looks really bad anyways, so i'm gonna type them up:

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Front
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Camber:
...Left: -1.1
...Right: -1.1
Cross Camber: -0.1
Toe:
...Left: 0.14
...Right: 0.18
Total Toe: 0.32
?et Dack (bad fax): -0.15

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Rear
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Camber:
...Left: -1.6
...Right: -1.5
Toe:
...Left 0.10
...Right: 0.09
Total Toe: 0.19
Thrust Angle: 0.00


That's what I got on here, if you need a direct scan let me know and I'll try to get one of the sheet, look it over! Thanks! :)

hedpe

What kind of an alignment machine was this done on? Can you find out? Make & model-

Haasman

I am not positive, I can call tomorrow and get the make and model for you guys. I wasn't aware different makes give different readings.

First thing tomorrow morning it'll be up.

Caster?

If the caster (backward tilt of front steering axis) is off on one side, it will pull. Everything else can be fine, and it will still pull.

I don't know how adjustable it is (probably a combination of caster/camber), but it must be correct.

If the upper mounting point is displaced, it will be hard to get right.

ditto for stagger in the front wheels (one farther forward than the other) -- if this is the case, the toe will measure correct, but in fact won' be right -- one side will be in further than the other when the car is pointed straight ahead. Can be corrected by altering the toe so that the total is correct, but the two sides differ to run straight. I don't know what effect this will have on the tires, but if it is pulling now, one front is going to show signs of incorrect toe and not the other.

This can also be the case on the rear subframe if the floorpan is distorted.

Peter

Under caster on the paper all it has are dots

Caster:

left: ......
right: ......

Cross caster: ......

hedpe,

I took a look at your aligment figures and compared them to mine. Note my car was balanced with a 180Lb weight placed in the drivers seat at the time of aligment so there may be slight difference.

In the front your Camber figures are pretty close to mine, mine are actually -1.08L and -.94R. My front caster is 10.93L and 10.97R. The toe is totally different than yours, mine are 1.2L and 1.2R.

In the back my camber is -1.98 and -1.76 although I don't think camber has much of an affect with the problems your having. The toe in the rear is much different as well with 2.4R and 2.4L.

I would imagine that having different left/right toe figures would definitely cause pulling in one direction, can anyone else confirm this. Anyways I hope this helps.

Caster should be something like 8 degrees on this car -- will check for sure offline are report back -- I've got the CD.

Will take a while, as I have a Mac and the damned pif file won't run on a Mac, I have to dig around file by file.

Peter

The type of machine shoudln't matter if its calibrated. The car will pull towards the side of lower castor, typically 0.25-0.50 degrees. HUNDRETHS of a degree are not significant. 10.93 and 10.95 will not make a signifcant change in your handling or pull.

If the frame floor is damaged where the spring perches or subframe mounts go you will have issues of some sort. Two simple measurements you can make:

Measure from center of star on wheel to underside of fender lip on all four corners.

Measure the distance from the center of the wheels front and rear on each side (wheel base). See if they are the same on left and right sides.

Also, Benz300's point about the tires may be the problem even rotating them around. I bought 4 Michelin MXV4+ premium tires and things dont' feel right with two of them. Try different tires. RIMS may also cause pulling if they are bent.

HTH,

(edited to correct typo about castor)

I'm not sure I understand these alignment measurements...I'm far from an expert on this stuff. I don't know how much of a difference a tenth of a number makes. Maybe some techies can help us out on this one...

how can our toes be so different?

i don't understand how i can have a reading of .1 and .09 on toe and you have like 2.4, anyone have insight on this?

md27, good thinking on those measurements, i'll post them first thing tomorrow morning also. I'm curious to see if they'll match up. Measuring from front to rear will also tell me if one wheel is more forward than the other as other guys were mentioning.

As for the subframe mounts, i'm gonna have to call the guy who put on the subframe and have them checked out.

As for the tires, the first dealership that busted my brakes and my wheels up and my quarter panel, well, they SAID they tried taking stock wheels from another 500E and putting them on and they said it still pulled. But i find it hard to believe a word they say. I'll look in to putting different tires on, maybe i can swap my buddies from his VW, he's got dunlop 225/50/17 (i think) on them. We'll see.

All of this is helping a lot guys, it's actually giving me a sigh of hope thats left finding this problem. Thanks again :)

Oh, check out what I noticed too guys. From the brake line problem (you can see it to the left), i noticed how the bolts shifted from the accident I'm assuming. Look at the 3 bolts and look at the marks around them. You can see the marks where the bolts used to be, and where they are at now. Could this make any difference?

http://users.adelphia.net/~nychis/500E/brake01.jpg

Those marks suggest to me more than the steering box may have been removed at some point. The steering box, steering shaft, and then the steering wheel must all be centered before setting the front end. That is the correct procedure for aligning the front end of the car. Not everyone does it this way including the dealers. The steering box accepts a tapered screw to center it. Verify the turn signals cancel out at exactly the same angles left and right. The steering wheel should lock in the center. If any of these things are off, your car may have issues going down the road correctly. MY car is at the dealer today for this reason. MY car was pulling left with new tires. I centered the box, reposition the steering wheel, and brought it to them with a crooked steering wheel and a copy of the shop manual. Its at the dealer right now actually. I caught their error.

HTH,

how do you check exact angles in which the turn signals turn off? I can make an estimate, but is there a way of checking for sure? Anything i can look at to get an EXACT angle to make sure the steering wheel is centered properly? I'd imagine the steering box is if they just replaced it. Hopefully.

Forget I used the word exact. The splines allow "a few degrees variation. Any more than one spline difference suggests a problem exists.

Don't assume the steering box is centered. You need to center it and check the position of the steering wheel. If its not level, the steering wheel is off and needs to be made level. Then the alignment needs to be re-done to adjust the length of the tie rods side to side.

Is this a job I can do myself? I have very few tools and when my tech replaced the steering box he said it was quite a pain to get to. If its something I can do, how do I center it and check the position of the steering wheel myself? Thanks!

It sounds like there have been many attempts. After quickly perusing the above, I have only two thoughts to offer;

1. I did not catch the details pertaining to tires. If you have not already worn yourself out swapping tires around (not pressure changes but actually moving tires) then take the tires from the right and temporarily mount them on the left and vice versa. If it then pulls the other direction, you have a tire with excess conicity (cone shape.)

2. The second thing that came to mind is something I have never seen on an MB but I suppose it's not impossible. On some of the very early integral power steering boxes on other brand cars, they would occasionally have imbalanced pressure. This means that there would not be equal hydraulic pressure in both directions while going straight down the road. On some of the early integral boxes there was even an adjustable spool valve that would let you adjust this.

This is very obscure, but it would behave as you describe. With the boxes that I saw that occur, you could raise both front wheels off the ground, start the engine and by touching the steering wheel and moving it just a touch, the steering wheel would S-L-O-W-L-Y start to turn on their own. I would be shocked if this were the case with your car, but after all you are looking for something that is obscure.

Hope this helps and sorry I can't come up with more.

Good luck,

ok after driving my dads car, and then my car (the W126 vrs the W124), I noticed on the same road, in the same place, when my dads car is going straight, his steering wheel is dead flat, straight. But mine, in that same place, when my car is going straightish (before it starts to pull), the steering wheel is tilted to the right a little bit. Do you guys think the steering wheel could not be centered?

how can i check to see if its centered? Someone said it should "lock" in the centered position?

If the steering wheel is not centered when going straight on a level road, the correct adjustment procedure involves adjusting tie rods, NOT removing the wheel and moving it a spline or two.

Any alignment shop that is worth a bucket of cold spit will make this adjustment by moving both tie rod sleeves equal amounts in the same direction.

If your perceived problem is due to the steering wheel not being centered we all need to know what shops did the alignments on the car so that we will know to avoid them.

I hope you are homing in on the problem,

I hope I'm narrowing in on it, something just isn't right.

How can I check the steering wheel to see if it's centered? Is there any way to check to see if its centered before i go to an alignment shop and ask for it to be centered?

heres the thing though. If the car is aligned right, and the steering wheel is improperly centered, say its leaning to the right. This would not make the car drift right though am i correct? So if my steering wheel is not centered properly, this would not cause my car to pull?

I typed up a message but it never appeared.

As Larry says is it that car your pulls or that your steering wheel isn't straight? IF you let go of the steering wheel on a flat road does the CAR go straight or does it pull right (ignore the existence of the steering wheel for this purpose).

IF the car goes straight and the steering wheel is NOT, then:

(you may/should jack up the front end of the car)

1. Check the steering box for center. There is a 14 mm screw on my early 124 box, yours may differ, to the left of the Pitman arm. There is a "V" cut into the shaft for the purpose of fitting a tapered screw. You may find a suitable replacement if you do not have a tapered screw. With the steering box locked - is your steering wheel level? (If not, then either the shaft or steering wheel is off center. To make the box ON CENTER you WILL need an alignment to adjust the tie rods). LEvel the steering wheel if it is not levelled.

2. Check the steering shaft for center. The turn signals shoudl cancel at the same angle (and the steering lock should engage with the steering wheel level. If it is not, then the shaft is NOT straight and needs to be realigned with the steering box at the coupling.

Its possible that the steering box was removed, and reinstalled with the shaft not straight, and then they moved the steering wheel to compensate.

Now, if the car does NOT go straight on a flat road regardless of steering wheel position, you have other issues (tires, etc).

HTH,

The car does not steer straight, thats the main problem, I guess the steering wheel looks crooked after it starts pulling.

Heres an instance:

I'm on a flat road, i set the steering wheel in to the most straight position, then it starts to pull to the right, the car starts moving rightward, and the steering wheel starts shifting to the right side so the steering wheels is now a couple degrees to the right more. It usually will not turn any more than that, and the car starts drifting to the right.

so...I take it this cannot be a steering wheel issue then.

lets say for instance that the turn signals are not turning off at the same angle. This would not lead me to the pulling problem correct? That proves an off center steering wheel which has nothing to do with the pulling.

I'm just narrowing down what I can do to try and find the pulling.

If the steering wheel is not straight, it will be in an other than straight position while you're driving down a straight road. Unless you are in the habit of consciously holding the steering wheel in the centered position while driving on a straight road, then I don't think this has much to do with your problem.

Have you swapped tires from side to side yet to see if that is the problem?

Have a great day,

I missed most of this and only skimmed the answers.

I don't see where anyone made an attempt to alter this condition through alignment.

Your basic problem is you have too much tire. Alignment specs are designed to place the car in a orientation while sitting that will be appropriate when loaded. When you change the design characteristics you change the need specifications. i have found that front end to loose huge amounts of toe in under the load of those tires.

The point is that an alignment of your car given your expressed situation would mean evaluating what is there and altering it to achieve the results desired. Up to the limits of adjustment that is what is needed to address your condition. I saw no CASTER readings. There should have been at least one degree less CASTER on the side it is not pulling to (right pull - CASTER low on left to correct). It should of had atleast .5deg of cross CAMBER to deal with the condition.

Why set a car straight if it doesn't drive that way. Among the reasons you compensate are the extraneous elements like TIRES. With those tires you probaly have direction tread. Even if you do take the front tires and move them side to side. Do this for diagnostics and replace them after seeing what changed.

I guarantee you 90 % of all cars I align that are pulling are doing so because of the tires. Many times one can compensate. The more aggressive the tire the more they affect this.

In my book,by what you have shown,you have yet to have an alignment that dealt with the problem.

Steve:

I was curious about the missing caster numbers, as it isn't possible, I don't think, to set the camber independent of the caster by adjusting the lower control arm. I could be wrong, but I'd still expect caster numbers after an accident if only to show the front end isn't bent.

I've had someone suggest a slight difference in caster before to compensate for steeply crowned roads, too, such as we have around here. Saves pulling on the wheel to compensate.

Would wider tires affect the offset enough on the front end to cause trouble, too?

Peter

Steve's years of experience in the shop are invaluable.

If the owner of the 500E had an alignment performed at the time the larger wheels were installed, it would nice to go back to THAT shop and get them to do it again. Sometimes the specs aren't good enough especially if the design as changed.

Your basic problem is you have too much tire. i have found that front end to loose huge amounts of toe in under the load of those tires.

I'm slightly confused about that. Aren't there dozens of 500E owners with the exact wheels and tires that are 245/45/17? If not bigger? I understand that every car is a little different, but shouldn't it be able to handle it? Does the toe reading on my car look ok?

I saw no CASTER readings. There should have been at least one degree less CASTER on the side it is not pulling to (right pull - CASTER low on left to correct).

I actually saw that there were no caster readings and found it a litlte odd. So I called up the dealer to ask where they were. They said that they had put the car up on the alignment rack twice. The first time is the readings that i posted. They didn't do the caster because they said that my steering wheel was not centered, so they had to center it, center the steering box, and then put it back on the rack. He's faxing me the second alignment measurements tomorrow.

Do you suggest I get new tires? I dropped $1000 on the 4 tires because I wanted to put good tires on it. It kind of sucks to hear that it could have been worthless.

It should of had atleast .5deg of cross CAMBER to deal with the condition.

Do you suggest that I ask them to increase the cross camber to deal with the pulling? right now its -0.1deg

I don't see where anyone made an attempt to alter this condition through alignment.

i think that's because they want to find the problem. Isn't it better to figure out why its pulling rather than to just overcompensate one side or play with some adjustments to make it right? If somethings not right, I'd rather find whats wrong than "jerry rig" the alignment if you know what I mean.

Tirerack shows 225/55 R 16 as the stock size for your car. Mercedes designed the car with that tire size in mind. Going to bigger wheels means more wheel weight and more tire weight. This loads the front end differently. Some custom rims and wheels LOOK real nice but don't drive down the road real good. Sometimes spin balancing ON THE CAR can't get the vibes away. The front lower control arm bushings are under more load with those bigger wheels and tires. Custom alignment settings are sometimes needed. Particularly when raising or lowering a vehicle. Talk to shop that sees a lot of customization and you'll see what is meant. They will tell you sometimes the book settings just don't work. They can make it right because their alignment guys knows alignment, not how to read a computer.

But, if this is the first time you're using those newer tires and/or wheels then you should start there first. Swap around and/or try a 4th or 5th tire/wheel of the same type.

If you look to the parts you will see that the control arms and bushings on a 500E are the same as a 300E with 195/65R15 tires.

I would suggest that the suspension was designed for these tires.

Probably the most important point I would like to make is reguarding the CONCEPT of aligning an automobile. I don't believe that setting a car up to a specific number is aligning a car.
I see it as an art like playing music by ear. The numbers are a guide and the performance the answer. If you can not get performance within the numbers the rest of the job is to take the numbers and find the problem. THAT in total is what I call aligning a vehicle. From that definition you obviously haven't had your car aligned yet.

Back to the tires. Whether MB adds enough structure and stability to their front ends to take the massive change in loading your tires give, is debatable. That they do change the loading and its effect on prformance isn't.

It is an absolute fact that the tire size you have on that car will cause you grief in this area forever. When the tires are new there will be less effect, but as they grow different from use you will wind up with what you are seeing.

And how anone aligning a car could overlook CASTER is beyond me. Especially a car that has questionable angles due to a collision. Aside from the regular angles CAMBER, CASTER, and TOE some others should be used to evaluate a continual pulling condition on a wreck repaired auto. One should look to the set back and wheel base also and the steering axis inclination and included angle. Camber is the sum of the included angle plus steering axis inclination. If Camber is OK on a vigin car the other two are bound to be OK but a sum that is the same from different components will add up to your type of problem.

The point is to be able to read and visualize what is the problem when it all don't work. THAT is an ALIGNMENT!

Alright guys, I got new alignment measurements. These measurements were actually taken 2 days before the measurements I posted before. The new ones that i posted previously were taken after they straightened the steering wheel. I don't think it would make a difference in our main concern though. Take a look at the caster on the readings:

--------
Front
--------
Camber:
...Left: -1.1
...Right: -1.1
Cross Camber: -0.1
Caster:
...Left: 10.0
...Right: 10.3
Cross Caster: -0.3
Toe:
...Left: 0.10
...Right: 0.09
Total Toe: 0.19
Set Back: -0.13

------
Rear
------
Camber:
...Left: -1.6
...Right: -1.6
Toe:
...Left 0.14
...Right: 0.14
Total Toe: 0.28
Thrust Angle: 0.00

The caster is higher on the right side, doesn't a higher caster on one side cause it to pull to that side? I belive md217 pointed that out in a previously reply. Can anyone shed some insight to me on what the caster is? Sorry, I'm really new to alignment measurements and don't understand which each is. Can someone explain the caster to me and what it's reading? How do the other numbers look also? The rear end looks even. The only thing that really changed since the last numbers i posted (which were actually more recent) was the Toe. It changed from .14 on the left to .10 and .18 on the right down to .09

Back to the tires. Whether MB adds enough structure and stability to their front ends to take the massive change in loading your tires give, is debatable. That they do change the loading and its effect on prformance isn't.

I thought wider tires actually helped the performance of a car by giving better traction and handeling. Are you saying that the new EVO wheels and the new tires are actually hurting my performance and handeling? That kind of sucks. I thought this was a common upgrade on 500E's, and no one else has encountered this problem before? IF that is the problem. I think the higher caster reading on the right side could be telling us there is still something off.

Everyone,

HDPE's tire/wheel setup is definitely fine for this vehicle. In 1994 Mercedes used this exact wheel/tire size on their Limited Edition version of the E500, no changes were made to the suspension or bushings.

Since nearly all of the suspension components have already been replaced wear should not be an issue either. That leaves either an incorrect alignment or tire problems. HDPE if you can find a friend with similar wheel/tire sizes I would suggest swapping them to determine if the tires are the problem. If they are I would discuss this with whoever you purchased them from and either get similar replacements or an entirely different tire. I suggest Bridgestone SO3's, great ride, handling and looks.

By the way I also have the EVOII Wheels with 245/45/17 Tires, I didn't align my car after installing and don't have any tracking issues at all. Note this setup does increase road feel significantly, but IMO the car needed that.

HDPE keep us posted with your findings.

A wide variety of knowledge is needed here. Performance isn't a single thing. The way tires help performance is by allowing larger loads to be transfered to the chassis. You want to go around a corner fast the tires grip the road to their ability and transfer that force to changing the direction of the chassis.

This ability is improved with big, fat, agressively treaded, tires. The tires ability to do this also improves its ability to do every bad thing it can do to the chassis, including shake, shimmy, track, pull, wobble, etc.

The fact that anyone including MB has installed successfully monster tires is only qualitative. For every thing ones adds in performance one place, one takes away in another. The key for me is to see the way the car was originally designed and look for specific changes. The car was designed for 195/65R15 tires and no where in production did they change the things one would change if one were to change tire adhesion. The bushings are still the same the tierods and sterring shock are the same. The shocks and springs are different.

From the latest specs you show there is almost no compensation. The car should pull to the side with lower CASTER, but .3 deg is negligible. An attempt to deal with your problem has not been made within those readings, unless they are all that can be done within the adjustments. The 124 body has cams for CASTER and CAMBER adjustment and is limited in correction by the lift circle of the cam.

To understand CASTER look at one... the wheel on a caster rolls on an axle that is not underneath the pivot for direction. If one draws a line between the center of the axle to the center of directional pivot, one is scribing the angle of caster. Think of a grocery cart. You push it and all wheels line up. Every once in a while one gets a cart where the wheel is bent up under the chassis such that the axle of rotation is directly below the pivot point (zero CASTER). This wheel wobbles and turns around changing direction at the slightest.

Alright, I'm getting a bit of conflicting info. As for the caster, md217 stated that it would pull to the side with higher caster, steve is saying that it pulls to the side with lower case. Md217 stated that .25-.5 would make a difference, steve stated other wise. Whats the real answer?

Here's a website I found that explains the different parts of an alignment.

http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm

Happy reading:)