Is merecedes too troublesome ? - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Benzwood · #76 08-30-2003, 06:09 AM

Just a clarification on the BMW... I was just using it as an example of total ownership cost and why a high-end luxury can be comparatively cheap even with high maintenance costs. I don't really like 'em, honest.

The BMWs I've driven have too much of a gimmicky feel for me. Some of them you can barely see the steering wheel for all the buttons on it.

I also think (a guess) that BMWs are more likely to have been driven hard (ultimate driving machine and all that).

But most importantly, they suffer from the stereotype that their drivers are jerks.

I have a friend who has several newer BMWs (and drives like a jerk, by the way) and whenever I drive one of his cars I can feel the difference in the way other drivers treat me.

No courtesies extended in merging or turning, for example, which of course means you have to muscle your way in like a jerk... and the self-perpetuating cycle continues.

Oh yeah, and their grills are ugly.

stevebfl · #77 08-30-2003, 02:07 PM

Just drove to Tampa and back to watch my young nephew play an Allstar soccer game. Love my E39 540i on the road. We went early and the drive was nice (120 miles). On the way back the traffic was a bear (I-75), partly because there is a home football game for the UofF today.

A big red Dodge truck and I were trying to drive about 10-20mph faster than everyone else and my wife was sleeping. one time when she was awake I pointed out how much better off I was following the truck than the other way around. People moved right out of the way for the truck. For me they moved their slow a** right in front of me at every opportunity. It gets to be a real game.

#78 08-30-2003, 04:09 PM

I don't have the experience with MBs that you guys have but my used W210 is going on 2 years now. With 83K miles I just put front shocks and new tires on. I had a window regulator go and thats about it.

Don't freak but the kid at the Quick oil change place knows a lot about the car. The first time that I took it in for an oil change I was real nervous, but it needed to be done. The kid knew how to replace the oil filter like it was his own car. I think I'm real lucky. He also knew that it was synthetic only.

I hope this post doesn't jinx me.

86560SEL · #79 09-01-2003, 11:25 PM

I am currently considering a 86-88 560SEL, 300SDL or 81-85 300SD. I hope the one I get is reliable. I think these typically are. As far as the reliability of Japanese cars, I think they are about the best- some of them anyway - even though my grandfathers 1990 Mazda 929 has 172K, but it has blown a head gasket before. I do not think Mitsubishis or the other Mazdas are all that great, but my aunts mother-in-law had a 95 Mirage that had 340K miles that finally died. She drove it on the highway a lot. Ironically, she has a 1993 Mercedes 190e that she bought in 1996, then drove it for a year until the brakes went out, then she decided to park it under pine trees, where it has set for years and is now green from moss. Sounds crazy to me.
Anyway- about the quality of Hondas/Toyotas- I currently have a 1993 Toyota Camry LE V6, with 211K miles and it still runs like brand new. There are NO electrical problems, no rattles or squeaks and the car is built very well, with high quality materials. My old 1991 Honda Accord LX 4dr had about 190K and still ran excellent and was also built with high quality materials. I have also owned other 80s model Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys in the past- some with well over 200K and all running well. In addition, my dad has a 88 Nissan truck with the 3.0L V6 and it has 250,000 and still runs fine. It has NEVER broken down the entire time he had it. He bought it in 99' with 200K from my uncle, who bought it brand new. It was never maintained, but still ran fine. It even still had the original spark plugs until two weeks ago.

I must say however, I think the quality of Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans have went down over the past few years however. I have heard of squeak and rattle problems with the new Camry's, Tundra's & Sienna's, as well as other problems with Hondas and Nissans. One good thing though, is that Honda and Toyota now also make some of the safest cars in the world today. Many of their cars earn excellent ratings in NHTSA's crash tests, as well as IIHS's "off-set" crash test.
I also had thought there was a lot of posts here about Mercedes problems, but it could be that this site has had more exposure than other sites. Most all car makes have boards similar to this on the internet. I am actually a member of several other forums very similar to this one. Some include, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Acura and Lexus. I have not yet found a BMW site like this one. I guess all in all- any car can break down, but a Mercedes requires a little more care and maintainence than many other cars.

DavidB29 · #80 09-02-2003, 08:05 PM

It seems to me that the experience of any one person or the experience that any one person has heard about, for an MB or any other car, will vary considerably. Some people have good experience, others do not.
An objective way to judge the reliability is from some statistical analysis based upon a large sample. The only such analysis published over a long period of time that I am familiar with is Consumer Reports. When I bought my first MB about 35 years ago, MBs were among the best, if not the best, in the frequency of repair ratings. There were very few Japanese cars in the US then. Now, the Consumer Reports charts show MBs as among the worst. The Japanese cars are the best, in general. That's just a fact.
As far as why that happened, it is probably a combination of the standards rising (that is, the best cars are much better now than 35 years ago) and MBs not keeping up, perhaps because of the increasing complexity of the cars.

My own personal experience with MBs has been entirely with cars owned by someone else before I get them. I have greatly enjoyed driving them, and I think their capabilities have risen consistently and considerably over the years. But there have been many times when I wanted to throw in the towel and say "never again." I think every one of them has had at least some repairs that I thought should not have been necessary, or were premature, or were overly expensive. Of the cars I have had, I think the best was my 1992 300D 2.5 Turbodiesel. But I lost it prematurely due to an accident. Maybe if I had owned it longer it would have needed major repairs, too.

I no longer recommend MBs to my friends as a "reliable" car, as I used to you when I was first driving diesel MBs. I think at one point I was able to brag that I had driven somehing like 250,000 miles without being left at the side of the road.

But I still enjoy them, and I keep buying them despite the costs. Call it a passion, or a hobby, or a bad habit. There is something special about the way they ride and handle.
But I sure do wish I could get another 300D 2.5....

Peter Fearing · #81 09-02-2003, 08:23 PM

Have a '97 C280 Sport. Driven it about 180,000 miles. Its never been to a dealer for any rutuine maintenace. Most MB owners buy these cars because they require so little care, at least thats why I bought mine. All I do is change oil. tires of course and battery. But in general MB require no real outlandesh maintenace. I think the worst thing you can do is have a dealer do your work.

nachi11744 · #82 09-02-2003, 10:50 PM

Hello,
I think that continous ownership of Mercedes from a 1954 170DS(my father's second and only other car) to a 2000 ML320 *qualify* me to comment here.

1. 1953 170DS(W191): Used everyday from 1954 to 1981, about 780,000 miles. Only real failure was OM636 engine threw a rod in 1970 due to air leak in vacuum governor line, overreving engine.

2. 1976 200(W115): Current daily driver, apart from worn carb that has been rebuilt with new main body, runs like it can go on forever. True miles unknown, I guess it has covered at least 200,000.

3. 1989 260E(W124): Some minor a/c issues and an oil leak from front timing cover, all cured. Changed all 4 shoks in 2000 and needs the vacuum actuators replaced in the heater/ac unit, otherwise has given sterling service. About 160,000 miles on it right now.

4. 2000 ML320(W168): OK, here is the *black sheep* of the fleet.
Has needed wheel alignment twice, sunroof assembly, battery, 4 new tires, front brake pads, front center armrest/console cover, an intermittent vibration at idle and the latest *trick*, the BAS, ABS and ESP lights blinking at the driver randomly. Total mileage is 30,000 miles.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

I am currently looking for a W113 SL and if that falls thru, a original 250S W108 is a back up choice and a W126 300SE for daily driver use if my W115 expires.

Acquaintances who have W140, W210, W202 type cars always seem to be *fixing* something or the other on their cars. It seems to me that the 1990s generation of Mercedes have *planned obsolescence* so that owners buy/lease newer cars.

fahrgewehr2 · #83 09-02-2003, 10:57 PM

My contribution to this thread:

View your car like you would a person - its not how perfect they are, but rather, how happy they make you.

Also, I read post after post about the cost of ownership. This in particular:

Quote:

When I asked my friend what it costs to maintain he just chuckled and said "Well anything you do to it is a $1000."

The cost of individual repairs are not what counts. Cost of ownership ALWAYS comes down to cents-per-mile.

Mike

zero4588 · #84 09-03-2003, 02:46 AM

Three window regulators, loose wheel bearing, squeaky seats, air mass sensor failure, malfuntion valve, O2 sensor replacement, dead battery, and many other little things that make today's Mercedes synonym to unreliable and irresponsible. Talk about total ownership cost and "state of denial" that some of us are in. It's true that Mercedes used to make cars that surpass and excel even today's standard; however, today's Mercedes quality is falling into a black hole that we will never see an end to this turmoil, at least in a near future. I know many of you may have heard of this already, I still have to say it one more time. Compared to the Camry I used to own, my Mercedes is a piece of junk, it's a fast-food car like McDonald food. Nowaday, people buy Mercedes because it's a Mercedes, not because what used to make a Mercedes a Mercedes, quality, durability, and reliability. All these essential ingridients are long gone. Neverthless, people only care about the name, a non existant attribute made up of aggressive marketing campaign and prapaganda. After all, German engineer is no better than Detroit Innovation. Buyer beware.

stevebfl · #85 09-03-2003, 07:53 AM

Twenty-five years ago I set out to prove that MBs could be an efficient cost/mile car to own. In my area of the woods, the size of my business is proof of my capability to do just that! And I charge!

The great bulk of my MB business is on 10-20 year old cars. I'll guarantee that you won't find successful shops with any size working on 10-20 year old Asian products or domestic either.

These are some real statistics! Combined with our body shop, we have 30 people independently maintaining these cars.

haasman · #86 09-03-2003, 09:37 AM

This might offer a contrast in ease of repair, I just found out that to replace a starter in a Lexus LS 400, you have to remove the injection system and the intake manifold! Yikes.

BenzBob · #87 09-03-2003, 09:52 AM

Like I have indicated before, many vehicles are designed for ease of assembly, not repair. Yes, you can keep them going but at what cost/mile?

I will give you another example of basic maintenance that is not economical. The spark plugs in an Lexus RX300 are designed for 100,000 mile replacement intervals, but if you keep the vehicle this long and need to replace the plugs, the ones up against the firewall are inaccessible unless you loosen the engine mounts and tilt the V-6 engine forward!

Someone mentioned planned obsolescence of an MB. Look around you and see how many 10+ year old Toyota's, Nissan's, Lexus's, Infiniti's and other Asian products you even see on the road out there. Probably the main reason you see this is the cost of repairs on these vehicles exceeds the value of the vehicle after the 10 year/100,000 mile point.

albert champion · #88 09-03-2003, 08:32 PM

i continue to be intrigued by this thread.

i once had a salesman in 1990. i would have furnished him a benz. he wanted a honda. accord, i think. he worked for me for two years. the car was remarkable. it never saw the shop. when this salesman left, i retrieved his car and drove it back to my offices[100 mile run].

the car was totally screwed up. no wonder it was so maintenance friendly. nothing had been done to it for 40,000 miles. the engine ran terribly. the alignment was all screwed up[reviewing the salesman's expense reports, i discovered that tires were being replaced every 10k miles].

after 3,000 dollars to bring the car back up to norms, another salesman decided he wanted it. he was more conscientious - at least it received routine oil changes, etc. but, whenever it needed any part, the parts were never in the usa. and the car was always laid up for at least a week. these parts included spark plugs and spark plug boots[extensions], ignition wiring harness.

at 68,000 miles, the auto tranny went south. honda offered no factory rebuilds. a new replacement tranny was quoted at $3,500. at the time, 1993, i recall that this was more expensive than a new replacement tranny from benz for my 1986 560sel. and from benz, i could get a factory rebuild for about $2,500.

the new honda tranny would have to come from japan. had to be paid for in advance from the dealer, delivery time to dealer 7-10 days.

the benz trannies were available within 24-48 hours. no prepay requirement.

eventually, for a 4-banger, 120hp honda tranny we had it rebuilt at aamco for about 2 g's. should have sold the car. because the rebuild didn't make 10,000 miles.

compare this to my 8-banger, 240hp 560sel tranny. rebuilt at approx 210,000 miles for $1,700. at 250,000 miles, working like new.

i want to close by mentioning some japanese design imperatives. by law, cars in japan must be replaced every 6 years. for all practical purposes, japanese cars are designed to this durability requirement. and if you have ever driven in japan, you would recognize that achieving 60,000 miles in 6 years would be quite a feat.

i had a friend with a lexus ls400. he accumulated 60,000 miles in the houston area in less than 4 years. he took his car in for its 60,000 maintenance. he had a heart attack when he picked it up. he didn't want to tell me the cost, but i was able to get him to yes or no it into a range. more than $12,000, less than $15,000.

i have never had any maintenance performed on any of my fleet of benzes that ever came close to this amount of money.

oh, and then there is my personal lexus story for the grand finale. in 2000, i purchased a new lx470. in its first 1100 miles, i had so many problems with it, almost all dealer-caused, that i offered it back to the dealer for the full price i paid for it. without argument, he wrote me a check and re-purchased the vehicle.

i have always felt sorry for the next owner. i told the dealer that he should just keep it in his fleet as a perpetual demo.

enough said.

BenzBob · #89 09-04-2003, 06:39 AM

For those of you who have ever traveled to Japan and spent time there long enough to know their "safety" certification system, you will know that each year your vehicle must undergo a safety system inspection. Things such as paint scratches, dents, dings and other visible damage are not allowed and must be corrected before receiving their annual certificate. To me it was rules to support the Japanese auto industry since after a few years it was impractical to cost justify these repairs.

Driving by an auto graveyard one day, I questioned the Japanese executive who I was with how old the cars in the junkyard were since they all appeared to be in relatively good condition. He indicated that most Japanese cars did not last more than 60,000 km before they were junked!

Peter Fearing · #90 09-04-2003, 11:28 AM

RE: Good obsevation regarding Jap cars. My experience and expectations are to drive my C280 at least 200,000 miles at which time I may trade for another new Mercedes. If its not obvious by now that these cars require little to no maintenace then you are'nt paying attention. Now at over 180,000 miles I have NEVER had any work done on my ride.