Is merecedes too troublesome ? - Page 23 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

blackmercedes · #**331** 02-18-2004, 10:52 AM

Keep in mind that the V-14 W140 car was not designed with "ease of repair" or "economy of maintenance" in mind. This car was the flagship of MB's product line, and in Canada it carried a price tag of $200K with taxes. Only the richest needed apply.

The S600 carried every bit of technology MB had at their disposal. The original owners of the cars cared very little about long term operating costs. If so, they would not have bought the S600, they would have bought an E-Class.

S600 owners need a "frame of mind" that puts them in the shoes of the people that were the target of this car in the first place. "Money is no object" would be an apt phrase.

This is not to mean that the used S600 cannot be a great car, but they are frightfully expensive to repair out of warranty, and people seem to have unrealistic expectations of the car. Sure, it was expensive, but there is no direct relationship with respect to reliability and price. In fact, with most marques, it is an inverse relationship thanks to the piling on of technology in high-end cars.

Thanks to the reputation for expesive running costs (justified in many cases) that the V-12 cars have, they depreciate very hard. This means there are "affordable" used versions floating around. I know more than a couple people that stretched to buy a used V-12 German sedan and then become disappointed when they were required to pour more money into the car. The purchase price had driven to the brink, and there was little left.

When I still had the Porsche, I would meet young guys that bought mid eighties 911's and were soured on the marque. At that time, a 1985 911 was a $45K car used, and these fellows were maxed on the purchase price. They expected the 911 to be Corolla like, thanks to it's high price. "But I paid so much for the car, it should be well made." Well, it was never designed to be owned by a 22 year old waiter that had to finance it over 84 months and empties his piggy bank evey month just to make the payment. (This is not a jab at the above poster, just my own experience with some 911 owners...)

In the flagship world, the S600 Mercedes is the best of the best. BMW's V-12 cars have failed to hold their cachet and don't even come close to MB's bank-vault cars. However, anyone that has to pay attention to running costs should think about a different model....

Zeus · #**332** 02-18-2004, 01:05 PM

It's all about perspective.

An S600 owner complaining about repair costs? If you can truly afford an S600, you shouldn't be worrying about the repair bills. A friend of mine has an S600 V-12 (sigh) and he just drops it off to the dealer for every maintenance scheduled and ponies up. Never heard him complain about the cost. That car is in a league of its own.

I've yet to see a 15-year old car that looks like my 300E. Still rust free, 300,000 Kms and looks new. People still ohh and ahh over my car (looks exactly like JCE's car).

I've never seen a Toyota, Honda, Ford or any other car look like that here in Canada. PERIOD. End of story. I've seen some Toyotas that have held up well in terms of chassis condition, etc. but they look like what they are - dated Toyotas. A friend recently mentioned how my car still looks "modern" given its age. It's part of Mercedes' classic styling. How many other car makers can claim this?

As far as the C-class, I don't think they're as good as other cars mentioned in that category but to me the C-class have never been "real Mercedes". They're an obvious attempt by a manufacturer to lower standards to enter a certain market niche.

The new E320s are gorgeous cars and IMO, worth the expense. Got a drive in my uncle's new E320 and it rocks!!! Everything about it is fantastic. How will it hold up? I don't know.

The G35s that everyone is raving about are pretty new. Yes, they're loaded with nice options and they're fast but I'd like to see what they look like and feel like in 15 years time and then I'll form my opinion.

Again, I think it comes down to perspective. Don't buy a 10-year old car and expect to never need maintenance. Don't buy a flagship Mercedes and expect repairs to come as cheap as a Ford Taurus.

P.S. I'll repeat my father's experience with his 1992 Ford Tarus GL wagon. 3 engine rebuilds - 3! - a tranny rebuild, AC toast, etc. And the clincher - paint actually FLAKED off the chassis. I've only seen this phenomenon on US cars. Paint FLAKING off. You could see bright chassis metal underneath - not even primer. Pathetic quality.

I'm loving my ever-faithful 300E. Think I'll give her a wash today.

manny · #**333** 02-18-2004, 01:18 PM

Zeus

Up yours too.
My signature is self-explanatory.

Zeus · #**334** 02-18-2004, 01:24 PM

Whoa, easy there manny.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not dissing C-class owners or their choice of cars. All I'm saying is that there's no denying that Mercedes lowered their previous standards to accomodate a market they didn't originally have a real stake in - i.e. to compete in the entry level luxury/sport sedan market. It was a bad move by them because, as others have mentioned, other manufacturers do it better and cheaper. I think the newer C-class are much nicer cars than the original ones, but I still don't see them in the light that I do the original models and the E and S classes.

Sorry, just my opinion.

Although the AMG C-class are in a different category altogether...

#**335** 02-18-2004, 01:29 PM

Once upon a time, a quality car was UNDERSTOOD to be built to last as long as a house. But some have also required high maintenance as a matter of course. Ken Purdy said the Rolls-Rovce Phantom III was "...understood to require the services of a man and a boy full time." Yet the contemporary 25/30 "baby" Rolls is a user-friendly pussycat. The old 600 Mercedes was at the opposite end of the spectrum from the bread and butter cars so far as mechanical support went.

manny · #**336** 02-18-2004, 01:39 PM

FYI, I grew up, literally " around the corner " from M-B & can tell you, the "real " Mercedes's came to an end in the late 70's, early 80"s.
I think that's about when plastic was invented.

As for my lowely C-class, I will match it against any, out dated in 2 years, riceburner you care to name.
190 hp, 36 mpg, best ride imaginable, super solid structure, parts are 1/2 the price of my previous VW, build quality the best I've seen in my 40 years of vehicle ownership.
I could go on and on, but I have work to do..............not on my M-B though.

Zeus · #**337** 02-18-2004, 01:47 PM

Glad you came up with a better response than your previous post.

Hey man, I agree with you - I'd choose a C-class over a VW, Honda or Toyota. But over an Audi, BMW or Infinity? Tough call.

All I'm saying is that I don't see them in the same light as the E and S class - which to me still look and perform like exceptional cars. But hey, just my opinion, I know you don't like it and maybe we don't agree. No worries and my apologies if I dissed you - not intended. Have a good one,

Benz300 · #**338** 02-18-2004, 02:55 PM

I never realized this would become such a huge post with almost 14K hits become the third largest post to be viewed in this forum. Well one thing's for sure, atleast now we know how trouble free our cars are :-D

blackmercedes · #**339** 02-18-2004, 04:22 PM

The C-Class is all Mercedes. Outside North America, compact cars are held in high regard for not wasting materials, fuel, or space. Without such products, Mercedes would not be participating in their market against their competitors that all offer such products.

The C-Class has the highest reliability of any post 1995 MB product. The W202 cars have very high quality interior materials and are long lasting cars indeed. The M111 four cylinder engine is bullet-proof and in terms of gasoline engine "toughness" matched only perhaps by the M119 V-8 or the M103 six.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that there's no denying that Mercedes lowered their previous standards to accomodate a market they didn't originally have a real stake in - i.e. to compete in the entry level luxury/sport sedan market.

What a load. Mercedes played in the market for over 10 years with the W201 chassis. When MB penned the W201 they also created the W124 mid sized sedan and created some platform sharing. What standards did they bow down to? Engines? Structural rigidity? The W202 shared drivelines with the W124 and W210 E-Class cars. The W202 introduced MB customers to double A-Arm suspensions and retained the innovative five link rear suspension. What standard was lowered in that dept?

Maybe it's the interior? The switch gear is the same as the W140 S-Class. Guess that's not it. The doors close like no other car except another Mercedes. Guess that's not it, either. Safety? The C-Class got side bags right along with the other models, had ABS, etc. right out of the box. And so on...

Reliability? The humble little C is very well made. In terms of reliabilty, our 1998 C230 was light years ahead of our 1998 E-Class. Overall build quality on our W210 was barely to the standard of our W202. Paint! Is that it? Jeez, no again. Our E-Class' paint was no more durable and didn't gleam any brighter than that on our C's sheet metal. Talk to MB techs or browse CR or JD Powers. The W202 C-Class has the highest reliability rankings of Mercedes' products.

Okay, I'm at a loss to quantify the statement that the C-Class is indeed inferior to other MB products. It's not in the build quality. It's not the paint. It's not in the reliability.

Hhhmm. Tepic AC system? Our C230's air blew as cold as our W210's. The ACC system worked as well, maybe better lacking the fussy dual zone system.

The C-Class was/is a very profitable venture for MB. They have not had to bow their heads in the market. The C-Class has sold well and worldwide garnered high marks.

We need to stop obssesing on size.

Zeus · #**340** 02-18-2004, 04:36 PM

Wow! I never thought a simple little statement would have C-class owners flying off their armchairs!!

All I'm saying is put a C-class next to an E-class or S-class. Alright? There's a reason one is $40K and the other $70K CDN.

Geez...settle down people. It's only my OPINION...all I said was that's how I perceive the brand - not necessarily what I can afford at the moment mind you - just how I've always perceived the brand. Tell me you think I'm nuts, fine, it's an OPINION. I've respected yours, I'd hope you could return the favor.

And my comment is a 'load'? Er, you seem to agree with me on the fact that Mercedes dropped their standards a bit to create an entry level luxury sedan...apparently Infinity did it better. Steel wheels, mixed interior, no sunroof, alarm...all are standard on the E-class and up.

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
I'm not sure what the 100 years of history has to do with anything, but I do know today I would spend my $42Kcdn on the G35 ahead of the C-Class.

Compare?

C240 steel wheels with covers : G35 alloy wheels
C240 some leather panels on the seats : G35 leather seats
C240 sunroof extra $2K: G35 glass roof included at $42K
C240 heated seats extra $800 : G35 heated seats included
C240 base sound system NO CD : G35 Bose standard WITH CD
C240 168 hp : G35 260hp
C240 halogen lamps $1500 for HID: G35 HID lamps standard
C240 alarm system optional : G35 standard

...

I see the G35 constantly, and I know why. It's a true sports-luxury car, and it's well equuipped out the door for $42,000. The Mercedes is a "base" car at the same price and offers less performance, no better (maybe worse) build quality and reliability, and no better dealer sales/service.

manny · #**341** 02-18-2004, 04:37 PM

blackmercedes

I feel so vindicated.

If my next M-B is an E-class, it will only be for the extra room in it.
Completely agree with your rationale & descriptions.
Just because the "C" is the baby of the family, it does not make it less worthy to carry The Star on the hood.

ktlimq · #**342** 02-18-2004, 04:56 PM

" In this particular instance, the driver's door hinge was popping off, and an A-pillar trim piece was egregiously misaligned; so much so that had we the inclination, we could have pulled the piece off with our hands."

Full Test: 2002 Mercedes-Benz C230 Sports Coupe
Edmund

"Around the skidpad, our C230 displayed an exaggeration of its left/right bias. . . . . . we have no explanation for the C230's counterclockwise 0.82g versus 0.75g."
Road Test Annual 2003

blackmercedes · #**343** 02-18-2004, 05:07 PM

The C-Class has lagged behind some new players in terms of value, no doubt about it.

Standards to me has little do with equipment level. An E-Class had better have some with more equipment as it costs nearly double. However, in terms of engineering, quality, reliability, and other MB core values, the C-Class is not inferior to other MB products.

The Japanese have come on strong with exceptional products, all with high levels of reliability, build quality, and they've stacked some goodies on top for good measure, playing the "value" card. Is the C240 Elegance good value? Not at all! It's down on power, has many of the competitor's standard features as optional and is priced high in the segment. However, is it inferior to the E320? Guess what! The E320 is not a strong value player in it's segment! It faces many of the same challenges that the C does in it's market. It's priced near the top, is not a leader in the HP wars, and has many options that are standard on the competition.

Our C-Class had less equipment than our E-Class had. It's smaller inside and outside. However, as far as the "old-style" MB core values go (longevity, reliability, build quality, long legs) the C was easy the equal to the E.

What does the C-Class lack? The "prestige" of the larger more expensive models. Ironically, my neighbour couldn't really tell the difference in our E and C cars, and in fact thought the "old style" MB headlamps and grille on the W202 were more "stately" than the round headlamps on our E300. 99% of people had no idea that our E-Class cost that much more than our C.

I wish MB would stop playing the game and go back to charting their own course. Bring us a C270 diesel for $37,000 with Tex seats, no traction control, and steel wheels. No Comand, no integrated phone, no TeleAid. Maybe I'd be the only one buying one. That's the market for ya!

ktlimq · #**344** 02-18-2004, 05:08 PM

However, . . . .

in IIHS-HLDI offset crash test,

MB C and Audi 4 show least amount of intrusion.

Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Infinity are good in crash test, but do not match new MB.

blackmercedes · #**345** 02-18-2004, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktlimq
" In this particular instance, the driver's door hinge was popping off, and an A-pillar trim piece was egregiously misaligned; so much so that had we the inclination, we could have pulled the piece off with our hands."

Full Test: 2002 Mercedes-Benz C230 Sports Coupe
Edmund

"Around the skidpad, our C230 displayed an exaggeration of its left/right bias. . . . . . we have no explanation for the C230's counterclockwise 0.82g versus 0.75g."
Road Test Annual 2003

The W203 has suffered from production problems and build quality issues. Here's hoping MB fixes that.

However, the W210 and W211 are in the same boat. At my dealer the W211 owners are constantly crowding the service dept griping about mirrors falling off doors, misaligned panels, constant CE lights, and so on.

MB needs to get it back in gear, and they better do it FAST. The W220 was not the great leap from the W140 it needed to be, and I see no end of them far sale now. The W211 is a superb car, but first year build quality was not been to the level it needed to be. The W203 was a dynamic improvement over the W202, but made no gains in build quality, reliability or customer satisfaction.

I am the first one to jump on MB for recent goofs, but the statement that the C-Class is not a real Mercedes is not backed up in any regard other than the fact that the car had lower standard equipment levels. In every other regard (ironically, in many markets the E-Class can be had in Classic trim with no sliding roof, cloth interior, wind up windows, and small engines) it is certainly worthy of The Star.