painful epiphany.

For those who can find a copy, Brock Yates' "Decline and Fall of The American Automobile Industry" (written in the early '80s) is worth reading.

The more technology there is in a car, the less reliable it will be, plain and simple. The older it is, the less reliable it will be, but less so than with technology. On top of that, the brand is a major factor in reliability, accounting for the era it's from. IMHO, the W123 benz is the most reliable car on Earth (I own 2), being not too old (ONLY about 20 years), and a Merceedes. It has just enough technology to make it not frustrating to drive (PS, AC) and it is built like a friggin tank. Diesel engine's built so tough it could survive a nuclear blast. The only way the car will EVER die is if it rusts - all you need to do is keep an eye out for rust and get to repairing it quickly. Even if you let it rust (like my 300D) it will still last longer than you.

If diesel isn't "you" then you can get a W126. They are about 95% of what the W123s are, having perhaps a bit more technology but VERY nice petrol engines (don't last as long but they can really haul arse).

My best friend has a VW. He hates it with a passion, although right before he bought it we both fantasized about how cool it would be and stuff. I think VW is in a transition phase, it will once agian make really sturdy, economical cars, but I don't think MB will ever make a truly reliable, long lasting car (like it used to) again. For luxury, longevity, and reliability in a NEW car I would stop dreaming. BMW is luxurious and reliable, but I don't know how long the new ones will last.

Just my 2 cents.
AA

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'82 300TD
'77 6.9
'75 280S
'74 280
'87 Porsche 944 turbo

"The more technology there is in a car, the less reliable it will be, plain and simple. The older it is, the less reliable it will be, but less so than with technology."

I think this principle only applies to some German cars, not Japanese cars. So I am glad it's not the end of the world yet.

Here's photos of a 5 year old Lexus involved in a front end accident where the airbags did not deploy.

No car company is exempt from problems

http://www.seloc.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=520&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

What's the story on that Lexus? Do you think that the bags should have deployed? Why? If the occupants were wearing their seatbelts, I doubt the impact was severe enough to deploy the bags. The front of the car is damaged, but lightly. The car is not twisted and the A-pillars are perfectly intact. That car has sustained little damage, and I bet the ETR's were more than sufficient to prevent injury. No injuries in the collision. How did the car fail to do it's job?

That car has more than sensors behind the headlights. There is an accelerometer (sp) that is located either under the seat or unde the console. It works with the front sensors in detecting rapid decelleration. Not enough force = no bag deployment.

Why does everyone think that their airbags should deply in every frontal collision? Top notch systems are only used when required. MB systems have a very high threshold, and it is raised when the seatbelts are in use. People have been conditioned by crappy domestic systems with bumper sensors that deploy the bags when you bump someone in a parking lot. THOSE are the "defective" systems.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

I'm not an engineer, but I can make assumptions from another Lexus owner who also happens to be a Certified Auto Damage Appraiser.

....."Dude that's just nasty. I cant beleive that the air bags didnt deploy ??? Have Nuum check the sensors and report back to Lexus. Lexus is known for quality,but something just doenst seem right.
Granted if they did deploy,that would significantly increase the cost of repair to the point that it may get totaled even sooner. As part of my 9-5 credentials I'm a Certified Auto Damage appraiser.
From what I see from the pic I see frame damage(not too bad) or at the minimum engine cradle damage due to the mounting point of the swabar not being in the right place. R&R the bumper cover,substructure,radiator,radiator support,radiator catch container, driver fender,frame alignemt(if its before the motor mount pints its not so bad),engine cradle replacement,both hubs and brake assembly replacement(if you squish a rim somethig else attached is probably bent to),both front wheel replacement w/ tires. You dont really see all the uglyness until they take the parts off to repair."

Think airbags (especially side-curtain), ABS, and lots of other safety stuff can be more trouble than it's worth.

These devices are not foolproof, and they add both to the initial cost and cost of repair.

As a car ages, always the chance that something can go wrong. Aren't airbags supposed to be replaced once a car reaches a certain age?

All for safety and such simple changes as seatbelts and radial tires. But past a certain point we're talking mandated gimmicks that create a false sense of security.

I don't think that an appriaser is any more qualified to determine whether the bay should have deployed or not than most people that have rudimentary knowledge about those cars. When I was in the car electronic biz we had to learn about SRS systems to ensure that we didn't fire bags and ETR's off in the shop. The thing that I learned was BMW, Lexus, MB and so on systems are much more complex than Neon systems, much more reliable, and use redundant systems like crazy both to prevent accidental discharge and ensure proper deployment.

The car is totalled, and the front clip is damaged highly. However, look closely at the A-pillars and front doors. The passenger cell is pretty much undisturbed. The force of the impact was easily absorbed by the crumple zone. The ETR's probably fired, and since ALL (good for them) the occupants were belted, the bags did not meet the raised threshold for firing.

Do you think that the bags in the C230 in the pic should have deployed? Well, they didn't. That car went over three times, but the ETR's were more than able to provide the required restraint. Everyone that has seent he car thinks my Dad should sue Mercedes since the bags didn't deploy. What's his case? I got one tiny bruise on my elbow in a highly severe roll-over impact, but the bags didn't pop, so I should get money? Huh? The car more than did it's job.

So did the Lexus.

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Rollover accidents are often not a severe impact -- as in a head on. They bags coudl have very likely functioned as designed.

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David
1986 300E Anthracite + ECodes + MB Mileage Award

They did! If you look at the front of the C230, it's damaged quite a bit. Most folks assume that it's ANY frontal impact that should set off the bags. It hit on it's nose, but not hard enough. Enough to severly damage the car, but not enough to deploy the bags.

I think that airbags should be yanked out. People sue makers like MB that make them part of an entire system that don't inflate unless required. Kids are killed riding in the front by bags that deploy in light impacts when installed using crappy systems with low thresholds. How do we win?

- were inflicted?

blackmercedes is absolutely correct. If the seat belt is deemed enough to keep the person free of the steering wheel/ dash, the bags will and should not deploy.

The point as blackmercedes points out is that is the passenger is not thrown hard enough forward to match the release power of the airbag the airbag might just wind up hurting the passenger instead.

Trust me if you have a frontal and there is no need for the bag you would like it to stay put. It is not a soft cushy landing pillow as many might imagine.

Way to go Lexus for doing an intelligent job.

Jari

My benzes

-89 560Sel
-96 S500 , Sold when lease was up
-86 300SDL
-92 300CE , Sold but missed everyday
-70 280S

Obviously, the Lexus crowd thought they should have fired


Blackmercedes wrote: "I think that airbags should be yanked out."

I disagree.

I disagree with that too.

I still like the fact that I have airbags in my MB!

Jari

Practically every safety feature on modern cars was developed by Mercedes Benz This includes seat belt pre-tensioners.

Once Mercedes developed pre-tensioners they were able to raise the level of impact that would deploy the airbags.


Their reasoning was that if you should drive through a wooden fence into a brick wall, you don't want the air bags deploying when you hit the fence.

People tend to forget that Toyota/Lexus and just about everybody else are benefiting from Mercedes R&D and aren't having to pay for it (which gripes me no end).

Toyota does very little R&D other than for the implementation of features and ideas developed by the Germans.

Also remember that there are only two automotive manuracturers in the world that send teams to investigate accidents involving their products. Those two are Mercedes and Volvo.

These investigations proved that a frontal offset crash was far more likely and dangerous than a full frontal crash. So while companies like Ford were trying to get a five star safety rating from the US Federal government, Mercedes and other European manufacturers were designing cars to meet real world situations. We now have the Insurance Institute argeeing with the Europeans while companies like Ford are scrambling to make their cars truly safe.

As for American cars, I was talking to a guy on an airplane who was telling me about his daughter having an accident in her Dodge and the air bag didn't deploy. It turns out that Chrysler Corp had overlooked installing the bag on her car.

She had the car repaired and had Chrysler install an air bag in it. The girl had a second accident with the car. As she was sitting in the car after the accident, the air bag deployed.

As someone once said, you may not get what you pay for but you never get what you don't pay for.

Yup. I still think that airbags should only be sold as optional equipment, and only by makers that can prove that they have used the type of systems that MB uses.

Today I would NOT buy any domestic ("Big Three Brands") car thanks to their rush to install airbags, lack of development, and poor history of attention to detail. At least the Japanese thought "MB does it right, copy them."

The above example of the car going through the fence into the brick wall is terrific. Low-end systems would deploy at the fence. What good is that?

People have no idea of what a proper SRS system should do. Most can't cope with ABS, letting off the brake when the pedal pulses. Most think AWD, ASR or even front-wheel-drive "creates" traction no matter what is happening with the tires.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif