Is merecedes too troublesome ? - Page 24 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

blackmercedes · #**346** 02-18-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
Geez...settle down people. It's only my OPINION...

Well, in your previous post you stated that "there's no denying."

So I chose to deny.

Zeus · #**347** 02-18-2004, 05:29 PM

And I stand by it.

It takes more than the lack of a sunroof or a CD player to drop a vehicle's price tag by 40%. Some big scheme by Mercedes to drastically overprice the E320 for "prestige" alone?

Suspensions are different, smaller engines, less refinements, less standard options, etc. all add up to necessary cuts to compete in that market when they should have stayed where they were, all in MHO of course.

I've enjoyed your posts John as they are usually tempered, intelligent and impersonal. Judging by your tone, if I've insulted you, my apologies. That's my second and last apology on this thread. Don't like my opinion, fine. Express it politely and I'll answer. Dismiss it as crap and I'll likely to fling some back and we become kids in a schoolyard. Goodbye.

blackmercedes · #**348** 02-18-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
Some big scheme by Mercedes to drastically overprice the E320 for "prestige" alone?

A great deal of it is. The actual production costs for the E-Class are not that much higher, especially when comparing the W210 to the W202. Things like air suspensions add to the cost, but the W210 never offered such things. Pouring over both cars, I failed to see the $30K. The C wears just as robust (lots of W210 owners with failed lower control arm bushings and ball joints...) suspension bits, sheetmetal, etc.

Mercedes make no bones about the E-Class being a very profitable line for them. As a side note, think about those $85K Caddy Escalades. Huge profits! Often the "prestige" factor adds up to a dramatically higher sticker price.

As to the tone of my posts, I think that it's fine to judge the marque and even comment on your own experiences, but dismissing MB's largest Canadian customer base (E-Class leads in the US, but C in Canada) as somehow dull and not realizing that they bought an inferior product not worth of even being on the same showroom floor kinds gets my back up.

Example? I'm not a fan of the W203 CL230 cars. But, some people love them. It's not my cup of tea, is all. Maybe age has dulled me to the idea of two doors without a removable roof? Not sure. But, many MB nuts have bought them and since it wears the Star, they're in my club now. Mercedes readily admits that I'm not their target for the CL230's. They are desperate to get someone under age 120 in the showroom. Now that all the 35-45's have given back their ML's and leased RX330's, only the diehards and oldies are still around. David Morris in Edmonton had 60 (SIXTY!) 2003 models left over and had to discount many cars by $10K or more to move them. Wassup with that?

It's known by many that buying the entry level in a upmarket brand is often a smart thing to do. I saved tons of money, still get free loaner cars and other dealer benefits as well as all the MB goodness I have some to love over the years/kilometers. I get bulletproof engines, superb engineering, bank-vault struture, lots of safety gear, and so on. I really liked our E-Class (when it worked) by was the first to acknowledge that it was not as good a value as the C-Class.

I'm not dismissing. I'm debating.

jwnors · #**349** 02-18-2004, 06:27 PM

My first benz was a 1976 300D. What a road warrior that car was and I took it to 250K miles before I sold it. The problems I had with this car were minor and being my first Benz I was in love with the drive, feel and yes, the 3 point star.

I next moved on to a 1985 380SE, bought it used and meticulously maintained. Ride quality, Superb! My only complaint about this car was that the small V8 sometimes felt a little underpowered. Had some idling problems that took a while to diagnose but other than normal maintenance and replacing the timing chain, she was pretty trouble free. I lost this car 1 year ago this past January in a freeway accident. Rush hour traffic had come to an abrupt stop and I was rearended at about 40 mph and slammed into the car in front of me. My car was totaled, I was fine, not a scratch.

I'm now in a 1992 500SEL, bought it with 70K miles on the odometer and the Jury is still out on the maintenance dollars. Haven't owned it long enough. As for the ride, it is a pure driving pleasure and a feeling of total safety on the road. I'll take higher maintenance dollars for comfort and security on the road any day.

Zeus · #**350** 02-18-2004, 06:40 PM

Alright fair enough. You seem to have much more experience with the C-class than I have and more knowledge on the structural components and engineering, I'll admit that. I can only offer opinion on my own experiences, which, regarding the C-class have thus far left me less than enthused. My brother's C240 was not a shining pinnacle of Mercedes engineering and left him wanting. He sold it a few months after buying it. It was a 1996(?) I believe. It was sluggish, lacked detailing and style and had a cramped interior (we're both 6'+). I also got a ride in one from Toronto to New York and I was similarily not impressed. Again, strictly on a observation basis, I didn't study the engine manuals.

So, my impressions, though limited, have been poor and did involve earlier models. I also thought the early styling was terrible. As I mentioned, I think the newer ones look much better - a huge improvement.

However, if they're truly all the car you say they are, no real difference between one and an E320, then I stand corrected.

blackmercedes · #**351** 02-18-2004, 07:14 PM

The C-Class is not for everyone. Embrace our differences! The car is about the same size as a Toyota Corolla. Big people are often not at home in them.

People have different ideas of performance. The aspro M111 engines are not HP demons, and around town the W202 cars are a little ponderous , especially in four speed versions. However, getting 6.5L/100kms' on the highway is a real treat for those of that vacation in our cars!

The model that suits an individual is going to depend on their needs. In many parts of the world the larger cars are sold with small engines thanks to high fuel costs and the desire to be economical while having a larger chassis.

The W123 240D cars are not "luxury" cars by any stretch of the term. They are underpowered slugs with tepid AC systems, no power seats, or anything else you might have found in a Caddy from the same period. But we love them for their simplicity, durability and complete embrace of MB's long held core values.

Many C-Class owners feel a similar way about their own cars. Four banger cars are quite simple by today's standards, and very easy to work on. Like the venerable diesel of the W123 cars (various versions) the M111 engine is long lived and seemingly unburstable unless subject to horrific abuse. The W202 is fortunate to have a good AC system, and time has brought reliability to it. And so on.

There is a long held perception that the C-Class is bought by "MB-wannabes" that scrape together just enough cash to buy into the club. It happens, but the stats don't bear that out as the norm. With an average age of 56 and income of about $150K, the C-class buyer is not comprised of status-seeking young people. Mercedes WISHES it were true, heaven help them. They want those folks in the showroom, but they're only there in some markets and not in the numbers they have dreamed of. The ML brought them in finally, but also drove many of them away with teething problems. Those folks came from Toyota land, and were expecting Toyota type bland-reliability. MB dropped the ball.

plink49 · #**352** 02-18-2004, 10:52 PM

This is a very interesting discussion, and for me particularly since I happen to own all three vehichles in question.....the C-class ('96 C-220); The E-class ('86 330E) and the W140 S-class (500SEL). I will try and coalesce my thoughts on the subject and add my two cents (three, with inflation) tomorrow or Friday....as if anyone really cares...who knows, maybe you do!

plink49 · #**353** 02-20-2004, 11:27 PM

To be able to discuss this thread with any degree of credibility (in my opinion), certain factors must be in place. One: You must know first hand the models you are comparing; Two: You must know what makes a Mercedes Benz a cut above the rest.
Is the C-class deserving of the Mercedes Benz star? You bet it is. Is it the equivilent of the S-class, hell no; the E-class of course not....but it is its own class. The C-class is the entry-level in the US....(in the UK and other Euro markets there is the A-class), but at the mid $30s it isn't totally inexpensive. I look at it this way....if someone puts his or her's hard-earned money toward a C-class Mercedes rather than a "top-end" lesser car I believe they deserve more respect if for nothing else than economic "smarts". Other makers such as BMW have the exact same model structure, ie: the 325, 525 725, etc. Is the 325 not a true BMW...ask the owners and you will get a resounding "OF COURSE IT IS".
Now, what actually constitutes a Mercedes Benz? Is it the Power-everything aspect? If so,then a LOT of other makes/models would qualify. Is it the wood/leather interiors? Sheeesh....it may have 30 years ago, but others have imitated it (but not with the same quality, I must add!) and so many have it; Is it things like super sound systems and cup holders and blinking mirrors and on and on? No. So....what is it that makes a car deserving of displaying that star on the hood? In a few words, superior engineering, material quality, build quality and safety beyond compare.
The W124 chassis E-class is a car that I would define as one with Spartan luxury. It has leather, wood trim and a few other minor amenities, but it falls way short of "gadget-luxury" cars most notably like Cadillac. But, it sold for prices in the mid-$40's up to 18 years ago.....and is still holing its value. Cadillacs of the same era are not even on the road (in the same numbers as percentages) because they are simply common vehicles.

When you move on to S-class Mercedes you are entering an area of automotive excellence that simply doesn't have a rival. The BMW 700 series and Lexus 400 series are great cars in their own right, but they don't compare to the S-class in engineering and (in most cases) build quality.

Admitedly, MB went overboard in the excesses of the W140 and paid for it dearly financially, but that doesn't take away from the fact that (considering enginering from the mid '80s) it was an enginering marval.

Which brings us full circle....the C class is the entry-level Mercedes Benz. It is ( and always was) a car worthy of the star on its hood and trunk.

I welcome comments

manny · #**354** 02-21-2004, 12:32 AM

plink49

Well said.
I guess in the end, ( 10-15 years down the road ), we'll see who is still around.
My money is on my C 230 K vs. BMW, Audi, Infinity,Lexus, or whatever else you've got.

jrmd01 · #**355** 02-21-2004, 06:43 PM

Just saw an old friend of mine. They bought a Lexus in 96' brandnew for approx $27,000. But today, they don't know how much it's worth...piston #2 is not firing and they were told that the whole engine needed to be rebuilt ($6,000 job according to Lexus service dept.) & the A/C system is messed up.

Their experience with the Lexus service department: The car was recalled for "A/C gelling" problems....they took it to the Lexus dealers and surprisingly the Lexus service dept neglected to repair the A/C, instead choosing to make other repairs totalling $600. To make amends, Lexus is offering to deduct $600 from the cost of rebuilding the engine

The car is ONLY 8yrs old! I advised them to dump that POS and buy a mercedes next time they spend $25,000++++ on a car.

By the way, they thought my 86' was a newer model. Their mouths dropped when I told them it was 18 years old and that I bought the car for $3,500....hahahaha. (I have only BEGUN modifying my car)

Hmmmm $27,000 and depreciating QUICKLY vs. $3,500 and looking like a 2000+ model ---- NO COMPETITION --- In this particular case, Mercedes wins!

jrmd01@yahoo.com

suginami · #**356** 02-21-2004, 08:31 PM

I have been subscribed to this thread since it started 5 months ago.

You know what bothers me more than anything else, even more than the opinions I disagree with?

The title of the thread has errors in spelling and grammar, and I am reminded of it everytime I receive an e-mail notification of a new response to the thread!

As a former high school english teacher, can anyone tell me what the errors in grammar and spelling are in the title:

"Is merecedes too troublesome?"

Disclaimer: I forgive you if you are a non-native speaker of english.

engatwork · #**357** 02-21-2004, 08:57 PM

Mercedes is spelled wrong and is not capitalized. I don't think it is a complete sentence

suginami · #**358** 02-21-2004, 09:32 PM

One of the fundamental rules of grammar is that the parts of a sentence should agree with each other.

It's easier to demonstrate than to define agreement.

Agreement is usually instinctive in native English speakers. In "I has a minute," the verb "has" doesn't agree with the subject "I". We would say "I have." In "John got their briefcase," assuming John got his own briefcase, "their" should be "his". It's obvious.

Only rarely does it get tricky. A plural noun right in front of the singular verb can throw you off. Consider "Any one of the articles are available": the verb are shouldn't agree with articles, but with the subject, one: the sentence should read, "Any one of the articles is available."

In our case "Is Merecedes too troublesome?" the verb "is" doesn't agree with the subject "Mercedes". If he is referring to the company "Mercedes" it would be correct, but he is referring to Mercedes automobiles (plural). The word "automobiles" is understood, so it is omitted. Since he is referring to Mercedes automobiles as troublesome, the title should be:

"Are Mercedes too troublesome?"