Some GREAT replies in this thread.

Larry

the real issue, i think for a customer is to discern between a sales pitch or a safety concern.

i'am sure a lot of you know and have seen mechanics taken advantage of people, especially women. i must confess that i, too have been victim of such callous practice, which is why i have taken advantage of this forum, and other fora to educate myself with my MB cars, and i am sure most of you are here for the same reason.

having said that we need expert advice (lawyers) to protect our interests in our daily association. a clear delineation of personal responsiblity viz-a-vis professional responsibility of businesses we patronize. hence, waivers of all kinds are being drafted, signed and executed.

i have no great love for lawyers, but they are necessary, like accountants, doctors, etc. besides, lawyers (should) operate within the bounds and limits of law. judges interpret laws while the bureaucracy in Washington legislate it.

Cheers!!!!!

It's a shame that attorneys are always viewed as the problem in our society, and a simple thread about one person's refusal to accept responsibility and be accountable can spark such outrage against a profession.

I am an attorney and proud of it. Last month, I had a guy come in to see me that had his car butchered by a national oil change company. His engine was fried and he was out-of-pocket $4000. He had attempted to get the money from company without success, and I got him a check for all of his damages on Monday. I felt good about myself because I know the company would have ignored his claim without the help of an attorney.

Sure, there are a lot of attorneys that I don't care for-- there are also a lot of doctors, businessmen, and accountants that I don't like.



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Hey folks,
I am completely disgusted by all the lawyer bashing in this topic. I am proud to be a lawyer and proud of my achievement in completing the very difficult education, plus bar exam passage, necessary to practice this profession. I've been out of law school for ten years and I'm still paying back my student loans. I work with poor people and probably earn less than the majority of lawyers. I'll bet that you could find at least as many people who feel they have been screwed by auto repair shops as you could people who feel they have been screwed by lawyers. There are good people and bad people in EVERY profession.

That said, I completely sympathize with Steve's situation. Not only would I refuse to ever work on this particular idiot's car again, I would alert other local shops as to what happened and let them decide whether they wanted this customer. I wish I was the attorney for your insurance company, as I am quite certain I could have won that negligence case, and I'd have been willing to work on it on my own time. Perhaps in the future, if a customer declines recommended repairs, you could decline to do any more work on that car until they authorize the recommended procedures, or advise them to seek another shop. I'll bet the customers who are always trying to skimp on maintenance to save a buck are not worth the hassle anyway. Peace!
Colin

I don't think the majority people here were lawyer bashing from what I can tell we're really just moron bashing. The fact that this lady happened to be a lawyer is probably a coincidence but the fact that she acted with no sense isn't. Cars are not enegizer bunnies they only last so long and even then its with proper care. Business owners are just going to have to protect themselves thats all.
I think we've pretty much exhausted this thread Lets just let it go and consider this a good learning experience...can I get an amen!!

My take on the problem is:
1. People don't know about their cars
2. People don't know how to take good advice.
3. People have learned how to blame others for their problems and shirk personal responsibility (from out legal system).
4. Lawyers have no cost and no downside to filing a suit.

People who know cars know the consequences of an engine going out of time. It infuriates me that someone who clearly knows nothing about cars won't take their mechanic's advice. If you are ignorant, take the advice of a professional. Is this what lawyers tell their clients?

I may copy and send this incident to a group that is trying to change the laws in Illinois. They are collecting stories like this. The tort system in this country has evolved into a random legal lottery where some get huge, often undeserved settlements and some deserving folks get nothing. If they change the tort system, people will be forced to take back personal responsibility. We won't need so many lawyers - what will they all do? Perhaps they could do something that adds value to something or perhaps help grow the US GNP instead of hurting it. Maybe they would not as they have no training for these types of things. (In the US: 1 lawyer for 250 people, Japan 1 for 9000. See a problem?) Shakespeare said it best.

Steve

Interesting thread. I notice the common reference to the ignorance of many car owners. Webster defines ignorant as "lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified" (an idiot is defined as an ignorant person). I think that I am a fairly intelligent person, but the more I learn, the more I find out that I don't know. Thirty years ago I felt I knew a reasonable amount about cars. That same level of knowledge today is whoafully inadequate when it comes to car repair. Think of how much more complex almost all aspects of modern life is compared to a generation ago. Being able to type was considered a "skill" 30 years ago.

The point I want to make deals with ignorance and car repair shops (and can be extrapolated to any business). Why don't you educate your customers of your own volition? I almost always ask about things that I don't understand when purchasing goods or services. I don't expect to become an expert, but I would like to feel that I am beginning to understand something previously unknown to me. Unfortunately, many people don't ask, and many "sellers" don't offer to share their knowledge. Teach people about their cars. Be truthful and honest, and not just selling your services. Don't simply tell them what they need to do. And certainly don't be condescending when doing so. Most people will have the capcity to understand quite a bit. It will only take a few minutes of your time, and you will be earning their trust and respect. After all, you will begin to be viewed as a teacher by them. This will not only mean their return business (and enthusiastic referrals), but you will probably find that they give you more business than you would have originally received because now they are starting to understand the benefits of proper maintenance.

gselzler,

As you read more of Steve Brotherton's posts, you will learn what a teacher really is. I've never had the pleasure of shaking his hand, but I would bet that his customers are among the best automotively educated folks that there are anywhere.

Have a nice day,

------------------
Larry Bible
'84 Euro 240D, 523K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

Enough was said by others.

A deserving thread added to Sticky: Organized MB DIY links
Generic advice/information:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=135055

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My $0.02: A car is a dangerous device in the hands of an uneducated or careless person. It isn't like a washing machine. Frankly, I don't care if someone runs a car without oil or coolant, the worst thing they will do is to themselves (and to a machine that they don't deserve to own). Unfortunately, there are a lot of other things that negligence can do - like underinflating tires, then putting 5 passengers in a car, or letting the brakes go to the point where the rotor shatters and locks up a wheel. Part of the requirements to get a license should be a basic understanding of a car and its maintenance. In the last 2 years, the following happened in front of me:

1. Rusty tailgate fell off and skidded 500 feet

2. Tire and wheel came off of a semi

3. Ball joint came off a front wheel on the car in front of me (very exciting)

I was very much against state inspections on cars. After living in an "economically challenged" area where people will drive vehicles until they can no longer move under their own power, I'm not so sure.

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I'm not a big fan of lawyers, but in their "defense", our system is actually designed to create shifty appearing lawyers. Getting the client off is the goal of a defense attorney. In most of the world, the goal of the prosecution and of the defense is to discover the truth.

__________________
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Fortunately I live in a country (the Netherlands) where suing everybody is not yet common practise.

As a human factors engineer I do have some comments regarding the original posts.

Always make clear why repairs are necessary.
For a mechanic it is obvious that a broken timing belt usually damages an engine, for a average driver it is not. Most people have no idea what a timing belt is. If the final decision is left to the customer they should be made aware of the consequences. Especially when there are no noticeable symptoms.
It is like going to a home physician who recommends a visit to a cardiologist. If you have no noticeable cardiac problems it is likely you will say “I feel fine, I can still run a marathon” and if your busy you may wait 6 months. If however he says “you have a dilated artery and will drop dead next month” you will make that appointment the same day.

For the damage by coolant loss Mercedes is partly to blame. In this age of electronics it is strange that drivers should interpret gauges to prevent engine damage. At high speed or in busy traffic you can not look at a the temperature every second. With coolant loss the temp will go up and then return to normal values, the sensor is on top of the engine and steam without pressure is not very hot. That leaves only the low coolant light, not a very clear indicator of immediate total engine failure.
French cars have a big light that says “STOP” in addition there is a vocal command to stop. Most car manufactures seem not to like indications that their product may fail.

having read through this entire thread i was going to say something similar.

the repair shop should have explained to the lady lawyer exactly what would happen when her belt broke.

in my business as an Architect, i do a lot of work on a handshake. but this is normally only done with people who i know very well. for a big job with a new client i always use a standard AIA agreement. this is an agreement that is continually updated based on legal consequenses of using similar contracts. it has about 30 pages or so. in addition to having good intimidation factor, it actually covers many things that can and do happen and assigns, in fairly ordinary english, responsibility for every part of what will happen in a project.

the best contract in the world won't keep a greedy selfish client from causing you a lot of trouble and expense. i have had bad experiences with clients when i use these contracts too. but having them is a lot better than not having them. by the same token a handshake from a crook is worthless, too. this is nothing new and has nothing to do with lawyers.

lawyers themselves are not the problem.

i am currently suffering the consequenses of "nuisance legal actions" from two sources. one as a result of my Architectural practice and one related to a building lot that i bought and want to build on. both are ridiculous but have taken on lives of their own because the people involved have found a lawyer who will do the work on an hourly basis and dont care if there is any real legal basis as long as they can collect the hourly fee. the one regarding Architectural work may have been aviodable if i had used the AIA contract...the situation would be better if i had, but probably in this case the "lady" involved, having recently come into a lot of money, probably would have been a problem in any case.

both of these would have gone away if i had laid over and let the folks have their way with me... but i am not made that way. when i feel i am being treated badly i tend to fight back. sometimes this is not the best thing to do from a business standpoint.

and larry, this is not a political thing. i have had problems with clients of both political persuasions and good experiences with both types.

so i plan to continue doing what i do, the best that i can, and i will use the AIA agreements more diligently in the future... but no agreement will ever make dealing with people "safe". and i certainly have no ability to tell a good one from a bad one with complete accuracy. i do know a few things to watch out for though.

i dont think tort reform is the answer. i think that there actually is no answer. people are unpredictable. dealing with them is fraught with peril and always will be.

unfortunately the alternative is sitting and doing nothing.... not much of an alternative, really.

tom w

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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Exactly. Nearly everyone on this forum knows the consequences of a broken timing belt as we know about cars. But the majority of the public don't know what a timing belt is, not to mention the consequences of a broken belt. When you say 'timing belt' most think, of the fan belt as all that registers in their mind is 'belt'.

She probably thought to herself; "Boy they want a lot of money to replace a belt...I'll just wait till it breaks before replacing it, no big deal."

So when it broke, and cause all that damage, she was shocked and upset because those guys (shop. Professions) knew about this ticking time bomb (suggested it to be replaced 3 times!, so that proves they knew) but didn't let her know WHY it had to be replace and the CONSEQUENCES of the belt breaking.

If the service manager told her specifically the consequences (severe engine damage) and the likeliness of a timing belt breaking (need to replace at 50K miles, very important) and then she still refused to have it replaced, then it's her own fault. As a shop owner, you'll need to put on the records that the customer was fully informed of the probable consequences of refusing the recomended repair.

MarkC

correct.

some repair shops like to play a control thing where if you tell them what you think is wrong they go to great lengths to prove that you dont know what you're talking about.

i am not suggesting that this was the case here, but they should have told her exactly what could happen. .. would happen.

tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.