How much do you pay for biodiesel? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #31 01-13-2005, 10:16 AM

Thanx for the links Sam. You would think that a nobody in the industry like you would not know of all those incentives before those that actually deal in it like the Lake Geneva shop in WI would. I will forward those links to them because they have never heard of anything of that nature.

I think that if it the price drops to be somewhat competitve with diesel, and they can make it more widespread where people like me won't have to drive 80 miles to the station, it would be doable.

Old300D · #32 01-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phidauex

I'm not even touching this global warming/blood for oil debate... I know what my opinions are, and I AM a scientist. I'm just glad that there are so many reasons to use biodiesel that two people can yell at each other across a table, and still walk out and use the same fuel.

I had opportunity to meet some people who had veeeery different political feelings from myself at a biodiesel workshop, and I was pleasantly surprised at how, on the issue of fuel, we were all able to agree.

In regards to the tax incentive, here is some good info about it, in particular, check out the 'fact sheet' PDF.

http://biodiesel.org/news/taxincentive/

The incentive will take time to affect pump prices, but its a big step toward true competition with petroleum diesel on the price front.

I think in the end, the thing that will break the catch-22 will be increased petroleum costs combined with increased legal pressure to drop emissions. Once that happens, biodiesel will be a lot more attractive, and we'll start seeing more major shifts. Then the money going into the industry will let economies of scale kick in, and prices will drop even further. Its a multi-pronged attack.

If anyone is super-interested in this sort of thing, come to the Grassroots Biodiesel Conference in Pitsboro, NC on the 28th and 29th of January: http://biofuels.coop/events.php

There are going to be a lot of movers and shakers there, and these are all issues that will be discussed at length. Mostly from the grassroots side, as you can tell from the name, but relating to small business and large business interaction as well.

peace,
sam

You are absolutely correct. I know people of all political persuasions making and using biodiesel. It is a grassroots thing that everyone is partaking in, and as such no one can afford to exclude anyone else. Carry on, I've finished my hijacking.

Legal Eagle · #33 01-13-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Yes, but what is the cost with labor involed? If you billed yourself at the standard rate of say a oil refinery worker, I would think it would exceed the $1.35 a gal pretty quick. Such cars are basically commuter cars that get you to work and back. You cannot take it out of town unless you are setup to run diesel as well, can you?

Well, billing myself would be pretty dumb eh? Some epople play golf at a HUGE yearly cost, some people sky dive at a HUGE yearly cost, some people do a whole whack of "entertainment" things that costs a bundle and provide, well, entertainment only, zero practicality. Me ? I make fuel for my Benz. It's good for the car, it's good for the environkment and it's 100% renewable.
You can blend biodiesel and regular petro diesel (commonly called "dino" diesel in the "industry") to any ratio. I left home for holidays with a tank full of B100 (100% homebrew Biodiesel) that I made myself,waited until the tank was below 1/4 and filled up at the petrol station with regular dino, and then ran around for two weeks on this stuff and on the way home I let the tank get to below 1/4 again and then poured in the 44 liters I brought along for the ride back. The engine reacted immediately by smoothing right out. I subsequently ran B100 until the cold stopped me. Biodiesel is cold sensitive unless you can add a good biodiesel-specific additive.
The only mods I did was to replace the tank's internal screen sediment filter and fuel filters. The BD acts as a cleanser and will clean out any residual gunk left behind by Dino, hense the filter changes. There is the odd time that a car will need to have the rubber parts changed for Titron gaskets as the BD eats through rubber, sometimes, but no more than dino or gas does.
I wouldn't hesitate to take my 1983 Benz out for a long ride, and in fact am planning to do just that as soon as it warms up and holiday time rolls around again.B100 all the way up and back this time.
Luc

rstallings · #34 01-13-2005, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Leo

No increase in mileage but it's a renewable fuel source that does not produce a net gain in CO2/greenhouse gasses and doesn't require spending a gazillion $$$ and squandering young men's lives invading a middle eastern country to acquire.

*AMEN*

WannaWagon · #35 01-14-2005, 12:37 AM

I can't get bioD in my area yet -- I'm working on getting into a co-op to buy it -- so in the meantime I'm working on putting together my own processor to convert waste oil. Periodically, I also buy 5 gal. jugs of new soybean oil from Smart & Final. These cost about $13.50 each, so that's about $2.50 a gallon, or only a little more than petro diesel at the pump. I mix this with dino diesel to take some of the sting out of the dino exhaust.

diametricalbenz · #36 01-14-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannaWagon

I can't get bioD in my area yet -- I'm working on getting into a co-op to buy it -- so in the meantime I'm working on putting together my own processor to convert waste oil. Periodically, I also buy 5 gal. jugs of new soybean oil from Smart & Final. These cost about $13.50 each, so that's about $2.50 a gallon, or only a little more than petro diesel at the pump. I mix this with dino diesel to take some of the sting out of the dino exhaust.

Out of curiosity, what mixture ratio do you use of soybean to diesel?

WannaWagon · #37 01-14-2005, 01:47 PM

I use a pretty light mixture just to make the grease stretch further and to prevent any gelling, especially this time of year. To ensure it mixes well before I pour it in the tank, I usually mix equal parts soybean oil and dino diesel in a 5 gallon gas can, then pour that in the tank on top of whatever diesel is in there. So once in the tank, at most I've probably got 20 percent soybean oil in there. But this is enough to smooth out the idle and clean up the exhaust odor noticeably.

CannonBall · #38 01-16-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

What's "communist" about "No War Required" and "Fuel the Revolution?". I see these messages as evidence that people care about our country and it's citizens, enough to not want to send them into war, and enough to want to stop sending our resources overseas to finance terrorism.

I’ll bite, but only to clarify what I’ve said, you’ve clearly not understood. If you’ve seen the sticker I’m referring to, it says “Fuel the Revolution” and it has a sickle and hammer. Last time I check that is in association with communism, I did not say “no war for oil” was communist, now perhaps I am mistaken, is that sign no longer in association with communism? Is the swastika still associated with nazi’s or is that the new sign of the Republican Party?

Furthermore, I have made a single reference to average global temperatures of a period ending a mere 3500 years ago and extending to 8000 years ago, a period where the average temperature was noticeably higher than it is now, and even higher than what many consider the temperature will be if current trends continue for the next 100 years. Also the drastic rates of change of temperature as the hypsithermal ended, which are estimated to be greater than what we have seen since the industrial revolution.

That said, background shouldn’t matter, but since people are throwing theirs around…I am a graduating senior in mechanical engineering with a focus on environmental engineering, I’d consider myself and environmentalist, I’ve studied a great deal about pollution and it’s effects on human health and the global climate so please, don’t write off my statements as right wing big corporate ignorance. I do think pollution is disgusting and can have adverse effects on health and for that reason it should be controlled, no business has the right to harm me. However, there is simply not enough evidence to make conclusions on the trends of the earth today or in 10 years or in a hundred years. Much of the “science” I’ve seen behind global warming is questionable and make the drake equation look like the work of Newton. May I suggest The Skeptical Environmentalist? There’s a speech called “Aliens Cause Global Warming.” It might spark ones interest in being a skeptic of the “consensus.” I mean, honestly I could go on but this is as bad as debating creationism v. evolution. We can’t even agree on the terms that we disagree about.

We can however agree on the use of biodiesel, so really lets leave it at that. I should have bitten my tongue early on but I must have been inebriated.

On a note relative to the thread, when I do purchase BD it’s 2.40ish last time I bought it for b20 and well over 3 for b100, lets hope Blue Sun gets their Mustard seed crop BD made. Also, another reason I use it, my car smokes less (at least in the summer) and it really seems to run better, I think she likes it (this could also be mental.)
-Nate

Old300D · #39 01-16-2005, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CannonBall

I’ll bite, but only to clarify what I’ve said, you’ve clearly not understood. If you’ve seen the sticker I’m referring to, it says “Fuel the Revolution” and it has a sickle and hammer. Last time I check that is in association with communism, I did not say “no war for oil” was communist, now perhaps I am mistaken, is that sign no longer in association with communism? Is the swastika still associated with nazi’s or is that the new sign of the Republican Party?

Furthermore, I have made a single reference to average global temperatures of a period ending a mere 3500 years ago and extending to 8000 years ago, a period where the average temperature was noticeably higher than it is now, and even higher than what many consider the temperature will be if current trends continue for the next 100 years. Also the drastic rates of change of temperature as the hypsithermal ended, which are estimated to be greater than what we have seen since the industrial revolution.

That said, background shouldn’t matter, but since people are throwing theirs around…I am a graduating senior in mechanical engineering with a focus on environmental engineering, I’d consider myself and environmentalist, I’ve studied a great deal about pollution and it’s effects on human health and the global climate so please, don’t write off my statements as right wing big corporate ignorance. I do think pollution is disgusting and can have adverse effects on health and for that reason it should be controlled, no business has the right to harm me. However, there is simply not enough evidence to make conclusions on the trends of the earth today or in 10 years or in a hundred years. Much of the “science” I’ve seen behind global warming is questionable and make the drake equation look like the work of Newton. May I suggest The Skeptical Environmentalist? There’s a speech called “Aliens Cause Global Warming.” It might spark ones interest in being a skeptic of the “consensus.” I mean, honestly I could go on but this is as bad as debating creationism v. evolution. We can’t even agree on the terms that we disagree about.

We can however agree on the use of biodiesel, so really lets leave it at that. I should have bitten my tongue early on but I must have been inebriated.

On a note relative to the thread, when I do purchase BD it’s 2.40ish last time I bought it for b20 and well over 3 for b100, lets hope Blue Sun gets their Mustard seed crop BD made. Also, another reason I use it, my car smokes less (at least in the summer) and it really seems to run better, I think she likes it (this could also be mental.)
-Nate

You got it Cannonball. Biodiesel is a BETTER fuel.

aklim · #40 01-16-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

You got it Cannonball. Biodiesel is a BETTER fuel.

Perhaps so. However, if we were only talking about the tangibles, the concrete or the quantifiable, what is the "better" we are talking about? Actually, the question is how much better if we weren't talking about the enviornment, the farmers, etc, etc. People have said it is better for the engine. How much better? Has anyone done studies that are unbiased and show how much you save per mile with BD with respect to regular diesel?

CannonBall · #41 01-18-2005, 05:15 PM

At the bottom are sources. Sorry if the formatting is weird, but I pulled them off a report I wrote the semester before last. Anyway, here we go

As an alternative fuel, Biodiesel is a great choice. Although the cost of the fuel is higher, if one were to convert to CNG or other fuels the initial conversion and maintenance require many years to break even. This is more an issue with fleet vehicles; the company where I work uses Biodiesel as well as CNG busses. The CNG’s do not perform as well and are in the garage far more often AND cost considerably more up front. Our boss has sworn off CNG on our fleet. I can’t quantify this, but there’s a study in the references that does.

For personal use, it depends on what your motives are if one is going to state that it is a better fuel in all aspects. This is certainly not an objective statement. For instance, gelling. This can be avoided by running blends; does the owner want to deal with this, this is weighed into the “better” claim. Also consider paying more for a fuel that can give you more problems. One test I sited claimed B100 caused an excessive buildup of “sludge” on internal components of the engine. Other tests have had different results, and some claim the engine parts are cleaner after using Biodiesel, but the data is hardly conclusive. Another issue is a car warranty; now none of us with 20+ year old cars have to worry about this, but many engine manufactures will not grant warranty coverage for engines running over B20. Many people are not willing to spend more for a fuel that will void the warranty on their new car. This is a larger concern in a fleet where hundreds of gallons of fuel are purchased a day and the unexpected cost of replacing a heavy duty diesel engine is not easily absorbed, especially when it should be covered under warranty.

Another issue is certainly, “How clean is Biodiesel?” Pure Biodiesel produces less visible smoke and particulate matter; as tests show Biodiesel particulates are 1/3 that of petroleum diesel. That’s nice, it’s nicer to look at, also the sulphur particulates are listed as a “known carcinogen,” but what isn’t these days. With low sulphur diesel coming out, if this is a problem it will be significantly reduced. The three major gasses that are tested for emissions standards are Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen Oxide and Hydro Carbons. In an engine running B100, Carbon Monoxide is reduced as well as a noticeable reduction in Hydro Carbons. However NO is emitted in numbers greater than that of petroleum diesel. Now, I passed smog easily with diesel #2, and the % increase of NOx’s varies from test to test. Imagine being on the borderline though, spending more for a fuel, perhaps voiding engine warranty and NOW not passing emissions. I mean, that would be a unique set of circumstances, however that’s only weighing a few of the issues.

Keeping money in America could also be achieved by supporting the acquisition of oil from Alaska. The ANWR area may be considered insignificant when viewed on a larger scale. If all of Contra Costa County, in CA were Alaska, the ANWR region would be the size of a nickel. Some people are extremely adamant about this land to the point of being irrational. This is no sense in discussing the facts with these people because they are blind to any idea of economic independence if it involves “lining the pockets of the big oil companies.” To these people I can only suggest that you use only wind power, with wind turbines that are not made from any poly composite materials and lubricated with vegetable oil, find a computer case made of recycled aluminium, throw away the nalgene bottle, because it is a thermoset and cannot be recycled, stop using all plastics, or any polymers, or else you are a hypocrite. Oil is essential to every person, and if you really believe that we need to lessen foreign dependence you would support drilling in America in addition to your support of alternative fuels. Wouldn’t a war to get oil result in a decline in oil prices? Honestly, we have taken Iraq and oil prices are at an all time high, we get ¾ of our oil from Venezuela so if we really were in a war for oil it would be there, and that’s really just the TIP of the iceberg on that issue, I’ve typed TOO much. Have a wonderful day, and really don't nit pick this, I haven't proof read it or anything, and don't take one sentence where I say something wrong and discount it all, that happens all too often.
-Nate

edit: WOAAA, I totally forgot about the older diesel cars and the rubber lines rotting thing, also another cost out of ones pocket to burn fuel that costs more, oh and the new hoses are what? oh yeah, made from plastics.

Ahouissoussi, N., & Wetzstein, M., (1998). A comparative cost analysis of
biodiesel. Resource and Energy Economics, 20(1), 1-15.

Haines, H., & Evanoff, J. (1998) Environmental and regulatory benefits derived
from the truck in the park biodiesel emissions testing and demonstration
in Yellowstone national park. Bioenergy ’98 conference of the US
Department of Energy Regional Bioenergy Program.

Kado, N. & Kuzmicky, P., (2003) Bioassay analyses of particulate matter from a
diesel bus engine using carious biodiesel feedstock fuels. National
Renewable Energy Laboratory, 510.

Morris, R., Pollack, A., Mansell, G., Lindhjem, C., Jia, Y., Wilson, G., (2003)
Impact of biodiesel fuels on air quality and human health. National
Renewable Energy Laboratory, 540.

Scherpenzel, J., (1999) The use of biofuels in diesel engines: test on Fiat 160/90
DT tractor. European Energy Crops Internetwork.

Technical statement on the use of biodiesel fuels in compression ignition
Engines. (2003). Chicago: Engine Manufactures Association.

Wardle, D., (2003). Global sale of green air travel supported using biodiesel.
Renewable and Sustainable Energy Reviews, 7(1), 1-64

Old300D · #42 01-18-2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Perhaps so. However, if we were only talking about the tangibles, the concrete or the quantifiable, what is the "better" we are talking about? Actually, the question is how much better if we weren't talking about the enviornment, the farmers, etc, etc. People have said it is better for the engine. How much better? Has anyone done studies that are unbiased and show how much you save per mile with BD with respect to regular diesel?

BETTER, simply to mean better in existing diesel technology: Higher Cetane, keeps fuel system clean, greater lubricity.

Also better, of course, in terms of emissions, CO2 balance, renewable, domestic economy and national security.

And yes, it has poorer low temperature qualities that are alleviated by mixing with pump diesel. I've been running B40 all winter with no issues so far, and it's been down below zero fahrenheit.

aklim · #43 01-18-2005, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

BETTER, simply to mean better in existing diesel technology: Higher Cetane, keeps fuel system clean, greater lubricity.

Also better, of course, in terms of emissions, CO2 balance, renewable, domestic economy and national security.

And yes, it has poorer low temperature qualities that are alleviated by mixing with pump diesel. I've been running B40 all winter with no issues so far, and it's been down below zero fahrenheit.

They said it doesn't change the power levels on the dyno. So, if we had higher cetane, would't that change the numbers on a dyno for the positive? If so, I would assume that biodiesel.org would be touting it. OK, so lets say it does keep the fuel system clean an has greater lubricity. What does that translate to in savings over the course of time? IE, will it pay for itself in the long run from maintenance and/or repair savings and after how long?

As to the tmmissions and what not, I doubt it will mean anything more than a fraction of a drop in the bucket seeing as diesels are not popular at all here and diesel fuel is a very small percentage of the oil used. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that gasoline and the oil by-products are more significant than a diesel automobile as far as when you break down the crude oil.

I thought you can run B100 with some additive to make it work? At least that is what the local BD shop says.

CannonBall · #44 01-18-2005, 09:19 PM

b40's impressive, I dunno where you get it or if you make it, but the b20 from bartkus on pearl has been gelling in the busses.

As for the b100 in the winter claim, we put winterized b100 in the freezer and it was like a brick the next morning, I don't want that in my car right now.

-Nate

phidauex · #45 01-19-2005, 12:26 AM

Cold weather performance depends a lot on the feedstock used to make the fuel. Winterized B20 with the right additive package will gell at the same temperature or lower than #2 diesel. Higher blends get different results. I've been running at about B30-B40 during these coldest weeks here in STL (not terrible, 10F-20F), with no problems. My friend has been running B100 with an agressive additive package, and hasn't had any trouble.

Soy BD, the most common in the US, gels at a higher temp than other feedstocks, like canola.

There are some additives, like Arctic Express, which have some functionality with B100, and very good functionality with blends. There is no perfect answer right now, but the solution is just a few chemicals away.

There is no reason that additives can't be added by the distributer to match the climate, much like #1 and #2 Diesel are blended by the distributer now. We just need some more BD specific additives.

And a quick comment on 'wars for oil'. When someone says a war is about oil, they don't necessarily mean that one is fighting to get more oil, or fighting to lower oil prices. In the late 80's Saudi Arabia attempted to punish Venezuela for overpumping their quota. They upped production to lower prices, which would hurt Venezuela more than it would hurt Saudi Arabia. At the same time, an economic recession in Asia lowered petroleum demand, prices fell too far, and Saudi Arabia was in financial trouble. A bunch of stuff happened, we bailed them out big time and got majorly entrenched in the Middle East. Now, humbled, they seek to stabilize oil prices by raising and lowering production to keep supply in line with demand, which they can do because they pump far less oil than they CAN pump. They just recently upped production by 14% to meet a demand change, and keep prices stable. Their job is to prevent anything, a new pump, a closed pump, a new demand, anything at all, from changing prices. Drilling in ANWR wouldn't change prices, because they'd just throttle back production to meet the new demand. As usual, its not as simple as it looks...

peace,
sam