Hydrogen systems- has anyone had success? - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cg487 · #**151** 05-26-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Invalid link.

Its completely "feel good". If people really wanted to be green they wouldn't be driving 23+ year old cars with 1980's emissions standards and 1970's technology. If people REALLY wanted to be green they wouldn't be driving a car or living in a big city in the first place.

OK, I fixed it and it works now. I always though that those of us who drive these old cars were really good at recycling and since a lot of us use Biodiesel and drive our cars for 225,000 miles or more, we were green for real ourselves since it took so much to make a car that unless you drive it until the wheels come off, your wasting resources!

I got banned for pointing that out too!

http://www.treehugger.com

#**152** 05-26-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cg487

I got banned for pointing that out too!

Actually, I think you got banned for insulting people and attitude towards the moderators.

"Sounds like you have little in education" ... "I meant it seriously."
"(cause it can run on dat water! DUH)"
"It's abeautiful day and I need to get out side some more and meet intelligent people!"
"but you already blamed it on me from your PM so whatever."
"I am if it means being green without being brainwashed and using some common sense."
"I'm being an advocate for the ONE silver bullet that will work, BIRTH CONTROL."
"which is a stupid trap but it does work for those dumb enough to fall into it."
...etc

I honestly don't blame them for banning you. What do you expect from people that actually believe CO2 is a pollutant? If you had approached them with a different attitude instead of going on a political rampage you might have lasted longer than 60 posts.

Remember the Lovecrap forum? Brian LC banned me more times than I can count but after I took a less brazen approach I've managed to make over 400posts there with a single account.

cg487 · #**153** 05-26-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Actually, I think you got banned for insulting people and attitude towards the moderators.

"Sounds like you have little in education" ... "I meant it seriously."
"(cause it can run on dat water! DUH)"
"It's abeautiful day and I need to get out side some more and meet intelligent people!"
"but you already blamed it on me from your PM so whatever."
"I am if it means being green without being brainwashed and using some common sense."
"I'm being an advocate for the ONE silver bullet that will work, BIRTH CONTROL."
"which is a stupid trap but it does work for those dumb enough to fall into it."
...etc

I honestly don't blame them for banning you. What do you expect from people that actually believe CO2 is a pollutant? If you had approached them with a different attitude instead of going on a political rampage you might have lasted longer than 60 posts.

Remember the Lovecrap forum? Brian LC banned me more times than I can count but after I took a less brazen approach I've managed to make over 400posts there with a single account.

Treu! But I think the comments directed at me which are still insulting and not even mentioned there were just as bad and no one else was censored, so this is an issue of being polititcally correct.

Actually I was insulted first by posting the videos, but I'm not worried since this movement has less than 5000 members. But I do have an idea for a new website raring the truth and letting users decide!

The post where I was accused of wanting to fcuk up the environment just so I can drive a diesel was what my "you sound like you have little in education" was a response to.

RichC · #**154** 05-26-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

That depends on the current load/demand. Most of the time its doing little more than free spinning since there is no ignition system to power.

When it is charging

Meplat · #**155** 05-26-2008, 06:27 PM

I agree with most of your points, but, I'd rather "gum up the engine with vegetable oil" and save $4.00 per gallon than. Poke along the California freeways at 55 sweating my *** off and save 2.5 Miles per gallon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

100% money robbing scam.

It, just like EVERY other hydrogen/HHO/browns gas "generator" out there, is a simple middle school level science project that an 8 year old can build. Its simple electrolysis. It consists of a jar, water, baking soda, and electricity. There is NO possible way it is worth even remotely close to the $97 asking price. They are making nearly 900% profit on it!

[image]http://www.auto-facts.org/images/water-4-gas-diagram.jpg[/image]

Review your laws of thermodynamics before you blow money on such major scams. There is no possible way it can significantly increase efficiency or produce enough browns gas/HHO/Hydrogen gas without consuming more fuel to generate the required electricity.

Electrolysis is very inefficient. It takes more energy to drive the alternator to make the electricity to do the electrolysis than you will get back from burning the hydrogen as fuel.

Simplified math of cycle.

Electrical generating efficiency of alternator roughly 93%
Electrolysis efficiency 70% ( a very high value obtained through actual experiments )
Diesel cycle efficiency 54% (highest ever observed in actual engine)

Now lets take 5Kw of mechanical energy and run it through the hydrogen generation cycle.

5 x .93 = 4.65 Kw of electrical energy
4.65 x .7 = 3.255 Kw of hydrogen energy

Now lets run that through the diesel cycle

3.255 x .54 = 1.758 Kw of mechanical energy.
So basically, you use 6.7hp to produce 2.36hp using a really old and obvious piece of technology.

So in the end the most you will ever get back about 35% of the energy you expended making the hydrogen.

Conclusions: Losing proposition.

Anyone that pays actual money for scams like that needs to retake their middle school science classes. That includes all forms of MPG scams- Acetone in the fuel, fuel line magnets, propane injection, intake tornadoes, special gas caps, fuel catalysts, octane boosters, cetane boosters, electric superchargers, MAF sensor resistors, O2 sensor resistors and throttle spacers.

NONE of them significantly improve MPG and ALL of them simply drain your wallet of money. Fuel only contains X amount of energy, the first law of thermodynamics says that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. Converting energy into different forms (fuel-mechanical-electrical-electrochemical-mechanical as in the case of the hydrogen generators) results in heat production and energy losses that cannot be regained.

Energy cannot come out of nowhere, if you want to reduce consumption then you need to reduce power demand.
Get all your maintenance up to date.
Use synthetic oil.
Disable your EGR.
Advance injection timing by 2degrees.
Keep the engine at 180*F, no higher.
Use clean fuel from a clean, high traffic station.
Don't gum up the engine with vegetable oil.
Air up your tires to the proper PSI for your vehicle (NOT what it says on the tire sidewall).
Get rid of any unnecessary objects obstructing airflow (spoiler on the trunk lid for example).
Lower the vehicle weight (Remove unused seats, clean out the trunk, don't carry gallons of spare fluids, etc)
Drive 55mph instead of 75mph.
Roll down the windows instead of using the A/C.
If you have a Diesel there are several modifications/swaps that can significantly improve MPG).

I went from averaging 21.1mpg in 06 to 23.4mpg in 07 to 27mpg so far this year by following those steps, driving like a sane person, installing special injectors, installing a higher ratio differential, and improving my turbo's airflow management.

#**156** 05-26-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

When it is charging

Well, a 12V alternator delivering 65A would be a total of 780W. Ignoring the alternator efficiency, that's just about 1 HP. In reality, the alternator is only going to use a fraction of that power to charge the battery.

ConnClark · #**157** 05-27-2008, 12:28 AM

I'm in an ethical dilemma.... My neighbor has bought into this hydrogen auxiliary fuel boosting crap and just doesn't seem to get the fact that it takes energy to turn the alternator.

He found out that I'm in the electronics industry and I design circuits. Now he wants me to build a circuit board for him from this 50 dollar pdf he bought off the internet. He still doesn't believe that it won't work. I'm getting sick of arguing with people that it won't work and its tempting to just make a run of 25 of these circuit boards and and sell them to idiots to pay for my own fuel.

I figure I can sell them on the internet saying its an out right scam and anybody disagreeing can put their money where my fuel tank is and we will see who can drive farther. Of course I will be accused rigging the hardware not to work and don't want to get sued. Any lawyers here have an idea on taking a fool's money with out getting sued?

(Note: lawyers take money from fools all the time but I think they keep that a trade secret)

whunter · #**158** 05-27-2008, 01:10 AM

Here are a few other examples.

http://www.google.com/search?q=perpetual+motion+machine+fraud&rls=:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

#**159** 05-27-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

It would be interesting to know on average how much of the time a vehicle in motion is decelerating. During those periods the generator could be used without penalty and the hydrogen stored to be used at optimal times.

HHO is unstable and should never be stored for longer than is absolutely necessary.

#**160** 05-27-2008, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

Petrol is also quite dangerous.

But it is stable.

#**161** 05-27-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

the point is that the technology is viable.

Other than the whole "complete scam" thing, yeah, its viable.

#**162** 05-27-2008, 04:54 AM

Download the "water4gas" manual and see for yourself what a cheap science project it is.

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4207260/Water4gas

#**163** 05-27-2008, 05:56 AM

I'm tired of the crap. I'm going to try it myself.

Should be less than $30 in parts since I have lots of usable parts sitting around and I'm not going to blow any money on somebody's scam how-to guide.

The $30 will be worth it to prove or disprove it for good in an real world not-selling-or-promoting-any-product test.

If it actually works, great, I'll save fuel and eat some crow.
If it doesn't work, great, we can let this thread finally die a horrible death.

It should look something like this when all is done: Before you bash me, I know its not the most efficient design and a PWM could increase output. I don't care about that, this is just a middle-school level science class project.

#**164** 05-27-2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

Be careful if you inject the hydrogen prior to your turbo -- it might embrittle the blades. Or at least erode them.

Thats my primary concern, second being preignition.

Quote:

We should not reject a technology like water injection, errr... hydrogen injection, because it shows no positive results on your particular engine.

Water injection works, its just a very low value for what little is gained.

#**165** 05-27-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

Hmmm... What's the solubility and stability of hydrogen in neat diesel fuel? How does it vary with pressure?

How does that make any difference at all? 99% of the "generator" kits basically say "build this, throw it in your engine bay and put a pipe to the PCV valve."

That VNT spins at over 150,000rpm, the last thing I want to do is weaken it.