My WVO diesel school project - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#91 09-24-2008, 12:40 PM

Sorry, there is no such thing as a good single tank "conversion" or good blending.

coachgeo · #92 09-24-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Sorry, there is no such thing as a good single tank "conversion" or good blending.

how much research have you done into the long history of the german company "Elsbett"?

WD8CDH · #93 09-24-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colincoon

The point of the trip is not to see if a car can run on WVO, we already know that it can, but to more or less show how much of an alternative fuel source culture there is out there and that people are interested in alternative fuels that WORK and alternative fuels can work.

<snip>
Also, on a side note, do any of you have the Golden Fuel Systems One Shot filtering system? It looks great for what I'm planning on doing. Just wondering.

Thanks again guys!

Hi Colin,

Pre-arranging your fuel, like with fillup4free will show the alternative fuel source culture and eliminate the on the road de-watering and filtering problem. If you don't want to prematurely wear out or damage your IP and engine, de-watering is more important than filtering. Even veggy oil hot out of the fryer usually has too much water in it. There are no filters available that will remove water from veggie oil well enough for safe and reliable operation.

Properly heated settling or a centrifuge are the only proven ways to remove water well enough over-night. Look into the "Frybrid Still" for one of the ways to do heated settling.

Remember, a good two tank system with properly de-watered and filtered oil will prolong the life of your engine. Without that, you will shorten the life or kill your engine.

#94 09-24-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgeo

how much research have you done into the long history of the german company "Elsbett"?

More than enough to see they are no different than any other company selling a product to make money.

Elsbett is a hack company. They failed decades ago when their engine bombed and they continue to sell "conversions" to hapless suckers who believe the hype and think they must be good because they have been around for a long time.

coachgeo · #95 09-24-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

More than enough to see they are no different than any other company selling a product to make money.

Elsbett is a hack company. They failed decades ago when their engine bombed and they continue to sell "conversions" to hapless suckers who believe the hype and think they must be good because they have been around for a long time.

lol, well since his engine designs are now inside most every modern diesel engine in production that seems to point your a little off.

But not worth arguing over. Collin and others should search it out and make up their own minds.

From Hans Peter Schur translated with Freetranslation.com

Quote:

A Mercedes Benz 300 Turbo diesels is operated without problems since more than 200,000 km with the fuel. The motor of this vehicle three times partially taken apart until now and by the Fa. Höckle, Mössingen, appraises (see reports). The results were very positive. Neither unspecific carbon deposits were, to recognize yet Verklebungen of the piston ring or other damages. That was surprising manner in the motor in every examination of the motor cleaner than in the previous dismantling, what suggests, that the fuel exercises also a cleaning effect. The emission values of the vehicle were measured twice in the TÜV and were found for well.

#96 09-24-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgeo

lol, well since his engine designs are now inside most every modern diesel engine in production that seems to point your a little off.

Sorry, I don't see any oil cooled engines in automotive or truck use.

Articulated pistons have been used for decades. Its not an original idea, neither is direct injection. Also, modern engines are moving AWAY from articulated pistons to monotherm piston designs.

Sorry, but their engine was noting amazing, other than an amazing failure.

Quote:

Collin and others should search it out and make up their own minds.

Yeah, in other words "I'm covering my ears and I'm not going to listen to you anymore!" Childish.

That "testimonial" is nothing amazing other than its proof that these engines are durable enough to withstand long durations of severe abuse!

coachgeo · #97 09-24-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

...Sorry, but their engine was noting amazing, other than an amazing failure.

If you look closely you'll see that the direct injection concept using piston cups to automize fuel (basicaly an IDI prechamber moved from the head to the inside of the piston) all pretty much are clones and reworked clones of his engine design. VW pistons are remarkably simular to his exact design. Was years ago I looked at this closely. Not sure what things have evolved onto since then.

Quote:

That "testimonial" is nothing amazing other than its proof that these engines are durable enough to withstand long durations of severe abuse!

Picked that testimonial out because it fits this project. Since the engine had been broke down several times it is a bit more than a testimonial though. There are others in the studies and testimonials and millions of miles of other vehicles that run it.

BTW the failure of Elsbett in last decade or more has been in NOT keeping up with modern computerized ignition technology. There one tank design IMHO no longer is a viable choice cause of this.

Still though I ONLY mentioned the Schur blend cause it fits this project using a 617 engine. Would not reccomend it for much of any other engines. Point is... Schur is a viable way to do a conversion ON A MB 617

There is ton's of modern cars I would not reccomend WVO use of any kind Schur or not due to their computerized injection programed specifically to match the burn characteristics of diesel.

WVO can be brought to close characteristics to diesel several ways (two tank, blends, etc.)..... but not close enough when programed by computer for Diesel.

NOTE: Computer I refer to is not just computerized ignition but also the super computer technology that now goes into engine designs to improve combustion of DIESEL within a manufactures product. They; as they should, work to get MAXIMUM use of all the punch fo DIESEL and close tollerances are now a normal thing. So close that WVO or bio-d lie just outside those tollerances now.

IMHO WVO as fuel has reached it's end unless (and a few have) folk reallly get in their and tune the engine to match the characteristics of veg Oil fuels.

Bio-D is closer in charcteristic but would still work remarkably better if you could reprogram the computers to burn it.

#98 09-24-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgeo

VW pistons are remarkably similar to his exact design.

Its a direct injection design. I have engineering books from the 40's that have combustion bowl designs far more complex and unusual than theirs.

Quote:

There is ton's of modern cars I would not reccomend WVO use of any kind Schur or not due to their computerized injection programed specifically to match the burn characteristics of diesel.

Any diesel for that matter, computerized or not.

Quote:

WVO can be brought to close characteristics to diesel several ways

There is only one proper way, converting it to biodiesel.

coachgeo · #99 09-24-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

.....Any diesel for that matter, computerized or not.

LOL.... let me finish editing. sorry I usually rewrite things several times till it finally seems to convey what I'm actually trying to get across.

Quote:

There is only one proper way, converting it to biodiesel.

Closed minds limits ones potential. Granted though overly open minds limits ones potential too.

IMHO biodiesel will soon not be good in diesel vehicles either unless they design them to be able to burn it. The manufacturers are getting "to good" at maximizing each drop of DIESEL. So good they are leaving no room for tollerance's to burn Bio-D.

#**100** 09-24-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgeo

So good they are leaving no room for tollerance's to burn Bio-D.

Which is a good thing. The more they try to tolerate different fuels in their engines the more they will cost.

Biodiesel can't be made in large enough volumes to be a viable alternative or anything more than a 2-20% supplement. Algae is different but that is many many years away from becoming mass production ready so there is no reason for them to build their fuel systems to work with it.

BioDiesel has higher NOx emissions, the main emission engines are being choked down for now. If they tried to make their engines BD friendly it would drive up the R&D costs significantly just to make them legal.

Detroit spent $1.5 Billion to design the DD15 just so they would have an engine that can meet 2010 on-road requirements.

coachgeo · #**101** 09-24-2008, 03:55 PM

Ok now back to Collin.

It seems with all information on the table a Schur blend will do him just fine as compared to a two tanker since his vehicle has the 617 engine.

But either way..... schur or two tank..... he needs to dewater if his goal includes longevity of the engine.

biodiesel would be even better but thats hard to do on the road.....

UNLESS.... he does not do it on the road. Just meets up with fellow homebrew biodiesel folk along the route. Probably easier to do that than meet up with WVO folk and returants on the road then try to dewater and filter

Maybe a combination? Collect oil where he can as a gift to give to the folk who provide him wiht biodiesel.

or..... give in a little on the longevity of the engine. Dewater best you can with the aqua block (limited dewatering of WVO.. does fine for diesel though). this should be fine for a cross country jog.

Once your back to normal life dewater like you should. Overall longevity cost will be marginal. The wear and tear of driving an older vehicle that many miles will have more affect on it in comparision. I limit these comments to the 61x engined vehicles though.

#**102** 09-24-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgeo

It seems with all information on the table a Schur blend will do him just fine as compared to a two tanker since his vehicle has the 617 engine.

Blending is never a good choice no matter the engine. BioDiesel is the best option, if not that, then a two-tank.

TylerH860 · #**103** 09-24-2008, 04:17 PM

The only obsticle I see is the huge amount of WVO he is going to have to treat for his journey. For a good 8-10 hours of driving, it would probably require 25-30 gallons of fuel, correct?

The rear cargo area of the TD will already be filled with Colin's personal belongins, a secondary tank, and an area for him to sleep if needed. The only solution I see to this problem is a small trailer, like the one listed below, to haul and filter the WVO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Trailers__NEW-5X8-TILT-TRAILER_W0QQitemZ140269285729QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ20Q26Q20TrailersQQadnZTrailersQQddiZ2828QQadiZ29 02QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140269285729&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4 506.c0.m245

He can drive by day, collect and filter by night. If he keeps his speed under 60 mph he should maximize his fuel effeciency and safely pull the trailer as well.

coachgeo · #**104** 09-24-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Blending is never a good choice no matter the engine. BioDiesel is the best option, if not that, then a two-tank.

you forgot to say "in your educated opinon" Blending is never.... etc etc.

You've got little more education on the topic than I, but Im stubborn LOL.

Others will decide on their own.

Apparently their is a long discusion on the Schur blend in the Turbo Diesel Register but you got to pay to be a member to view it.

colincoon · #**105** 09-24-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WD8CDH

Hi Colin,

Pre-arranging your fuel, like with fillup4free will show the alternative fuel source culture and eliminate the on the road de-watering and filtering problem. If you don't want to prematurely wear out or damage your IP and engine, de-watering is more important than filtering. Even veggy oil hot out of the fryer usually has too much water in it. There are no filters available that will remove water from veggie oil well enough for safe and reliable operation.

Properly heated settling or a centrifuge are the only proven ways to remove water well enough over-night. Look into the "Frybrid Still" for one of the ways to do heated settling.

Remember, a good two tank system with properly de-watered and filtered oil will prolong the life of your engine. Without that, you will shorten the life or kill your engine.

Yes I will be posting on Fill Up 4 Free once I have my route roughly laid out so that people there who are close can let me know if they would like to share some WVO. I also am very interested in the wvo/biodiesel culture, and it would be cool to document it to show what sort of following it has. It's a great idea, thank you for it!

I've heard about these centrifuges, and really don't know a lot about them. Are they expensive? Do they come in small sizes so I can carry it with me in the car? How exactly do they work? Is there a way to build one myself that will be practical for this trip?

See, I don't know a whole lot about it. If any of you guys can lead me in the right direction about one, please do! I'm interested in looking at it, and if I can afford it might look into it as a possible filtering system. I just really am in the dark about it!

And another thing, I will have time at my destinations. I will have multiple days in most cases, so I was considering doing some settling and filtering the proper way while not on the road. I will have to figure out a way to really do this effectively and still keep the extra cargo down to a minimum, as well as expense.

Thanks for the advice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerH860

The only obsticle I see is the huge amount of WVO he is going to have to treat for his journey. For a good 8-10 hours of driving, it would probably require 25-30 gallons of fuel, correct?

The rear cargo area of the TD will already be filled with Colin's personal belongings, a secondary tank, and an area for him to sleep if needed. The only solution I see to this problem is a small trailer, like the one listed below, to haul and filter the WVO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Trailers__NEW-5X8-TILT-TRAILER_W0QQitemZ140269285729QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ20Q26Q20TrailersQQadnZTrailersQQddiZ2828QQadiZ29 02QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140269285729&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4 506.c0.m245

He can drive by day, collect and filter by night. If he keeps his speed under 60 mph he should maximize his fuel efficiency and safely pull the trailer as well.

I have also been considering a trailer hitch "platform" like the one you mentioned to me. What I am considering is hauling a container full of oil with me on it to minimize fuel stops. Maybe hold an extra 15-25 gallons back there, and if there is enough room put the pumping/filtering equipment there as well.

If that fails, then yes I will consider a trailer as well. Something like that looks perfect for putting stuff on, maybe I can find one locally.

Then only thing that's holding me back is the flexibility of what money I raise. The first 5K I will hold in the bank, and that will go straight to the car I purchase. I will not buy ANYTHING before I have sufficient funds for the vehicle. After that it really depends on what items are necessary to do the project, and what can be ruled as a "luxury" and put on the back burner as not totally necessary.

And you're totally making me sound like one of your "Diesel Squad Troupe" superheros in that last statement! And not to worry, this will all be done at or below the speed limit, I don't need my first ticket to be in the middle of this!

THANK YOU ALL for the advice you've given me! Really, I'd be totally in the dark without all I've learned from here. There will be Mercedes Shop logo to appear somewhere on the car!

And if you want a letter, PM me!!!!

Colin