Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion > Alternative Fuels

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-17-2011, 09:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 38
Should I add anything to Kerosene/heating oil

Hi

If I use kerosene in a modern (2000) Toyota diesel engine should I add anything or be careful of anything.
For emergency use only but might use for a 1000 miles...

Thanks spiral

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:16 PM
Quirky Mercy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: S/E Mi.
Posts: 159
I would not run straight Kero in it. That will create an emergency. 1000 miles is a long way to run with improper fuel. Heating oil is almost the same as pump diesel without the tax. I would not run that either as you could cause an emergency to your wallet. I have ran 1 gal of kero to a full tank of fuel with no trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:22 PM
Aquaticedge's Avatar
Bump on a log
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: See Biography
Posts: 3,148
Isnt kero dyed a diff color if you get it from the pump? I know it's clear if you get it from a store though..
__________________
hum.....
1987 300TD 311,000M Stolen. Presumed destroyed
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky Mercy View Post
I would not run straight Kero in it. That will create an emergency. 1000 miles is a long way to run with improper fuel. Heating oil is almost the same as pump diesel without the tax. I would not run that either as you could cause an emergency to your wallet. I have ran 1 gal of kero to a full tank of fuel with no trouble.
Thanks for the reply.
If I run straight kerosene what emergency will I create?

Thanks again
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaticedge View Post
Isnt kero dyed a diff color if you get it from the pump? I know it's clear if you get it from a store though..
Clear at pump but does not matter.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:49 PM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Kerosene

1.Is much closer to Jet Fuel,than it is to Diesel.

2.A Turbine will run Happily on Kerosene.
(But,not the crap you buy at the corner store!)

3.'Has LESS Lubricating properties than number two diesel.
(It's "Dryer")
Your Injection Pump AND Injectors will not be happy.
(AND have a Shortened Service Life.)

Injectors are probably $60. Each
An I.P. is probably $1,400.

What's with this almost O.C.D./Fixation of people trying to run the WRONG fuels?
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:02 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by compress ignite View Post
1.Is much closer to Jet Fuel,than it is to Diesel.

2.A Turbine will run Happily on Kerosene.
(But,not the crap you buy at the corner store!)

3.'Has LESS Lubricating properties than number two diesel.
(It's "Dryer")
Your Injection Pump AND Injectors will not be happy.
(AND have a Shortened Service Life.)

Injectors are probably $60. Each
An I.P. is probably $1,400.

What's with this almost O.C.D./Fixation of people trying to run the WRONG fuels?
Is there anything I can add to Kerosene to make it OK to run in a diesel engine? I do not want to harm the engine.
Diesel is in tight supply right now. Kerosene not so much.

Regards
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:41 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Kerosene

Kerosene is heavier than diesel and has a lower flash point and you won't get as much iginition from compression as you would with diesel.

Diesel is simply a different fractional distillation product of crude oil....the resulting mixture of carbon chains in the hydrocarbons that comprise diesel fuel typically contain between 8 and 21 carbon atoms per molecule.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Kerosene is distilled from crude oil at much lower temperatures, resulting in a mixture of carbon chains that typically contain between 6 and 16 carbon atoms per molecule.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]


About Diesel Fuel
By Bill King 12/8/2000
With all of the recent talk about using Kerosene (number 1 diesel) as a motor fuel and the differences between grades of Diesel Fuel, I thought I would pass along to the group my short course on refined petroleum.

In the hierarchy of refined petroleum products from highest to lowest (from a gaseous state, then liquid, to solid) are: natural gas; "wet" natural gas; high-octane aviation gasoline; automotive gasoline; finished kerosene; home heating oil; diesel fuel; industrial fuel oil; finished lubricating oils; waxes and paraffin's; gas oil; coke and finally asphalt. Also moving from highest to lowest, the viscosity, or stiffness, of the refined product increases. For example, at room temperature, automotive gasoline flows much more freely than finished lubricating oils.

Diesel fuel lies in the middle of the refined petroleum hierarchy and is considered one of the middle distillates -- slightly heavier than kerosene and slightly lighter than industrial (bunker) fuel oil. Like automotive gasoline, diesel fuel is refined into several sub-categories or grades. From highest to lowest viscosity are Number 1 Diesel Fuel (1-D), Number 2 Diesel
Fuel (2-D) and Number 4 Fuel Diesel (4-D). There used to be a Number 3 Diesel Fuel (3-D), but it is no longer refined.

Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel is slightly lighter than industrial fuel oil and is used in low and medium speed engines that operate at a constant or near-constant speed, such as stationary power plants or railroad locomotives. Even though Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel, it is too thick to work well in a truck engine where the load on the engine is constantly changing and requires varying amounts of fuel to be injected into the cylinders.

Just above Diesel fuel in the middle distillate category is Kerosene. Like Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, Kerosene has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel. But unlike Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, which is too thick, Kerosene is too thin to work well as an engine fuel. The thickness of the diesel fuel itself acts as a lubricant to prevent wear of the engine's fuel injectors. This lubricating quality of diesel fuel is why some Old-timers still refer to it as "Diesel Oil." Adding a common lubricant to Kerosene usually decreases its ignition quality.

Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel are the primary fuel for mobile diesel engine applications. Number 1 Diesel Fuel is commonly labeled at the pump as "Premium Diesel" or with a Cetane number of 44 or 45. It is not as thick as Number 2 Diesel Fuel and for this reason is the choice for motorists during the cold winter months. The disadvantage of Number 1 Diesel Fuel is that it does not have the lubricating qualities associated with Number 2 Diesel Fuel. While Number 2 Diesel Fuel has a higher lubricating quality than Number 1 Diesel, its thickness can cause rough starting in a cold engine and rough-running in cold weather. Number 2 Diesel Fuel is usually labeled at the pump with a Cetane number of 40.

Home Heating Oil is closest to Number 2 Diesel Fuel in ignition quality and lubricating ability. But before anybody rushes to put this non-road taxed fuel in their truck, consider this: refiners don't intend Home Heating Oil to be used in an internal combustion engine and the furnace fuel that is sitting in your basement tank may or may not have the smoke suppressants, ignition accelerators and biocides to kill fungi and bacteria that we generally assume to be present in the Diesel Fuel at the pump
[link to flashoffroad.com]
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:44 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Kerosene

K-1 Kerosene, #1 diesel, and jet fuel (JP4) are closely related to each other. #1 and JP4 have higher allowable sulfur than K-1 (kerosene is also called coal oil by old timers). Since #1 is a shorter hydrocarbon blend it has better solvent properties than #2. (We used to clean out our armored vehicle engine compartments with diesel fuel in the Army, also gasoline used to be sold as petroleum naphtha as a cleaning solvent before it became a motor fuel.) It also has a lower gel point, which means that it takes a colder temperature to turn it to a molasses like thickness. Because these fuels are blends they don't
freeze like water, they act more like Jell-O slowly getting thicker until they set. This is why in cold climates it is suggested that #2 be blended with kerosene to keep it from gelling to soon. (Mercedes suggests using up to 30% gasoline in very cold climates).

In the US fuel oils are blended according to climate and location and there are also additives that control gel point, contamination (like water), change the flash point, to identify different uses (dyes) etc.

There is no real benefit to using kerosene /#1 over #2 unless you need to because of cold temperatures or you just want to clean out your system. If you switch to #1 please change your fuel filter to avoid clogging from any gunk removed. As it has been pointed out #2 has the higher heat (BTU) content.

All of this is good to know as in a pinch you can use diesel (or kerosene) in your furnace as a correspondent in Florida recently did during a cold spell when he couldn't get a delivery of fuel oil right away. (Conversely you can use fuel oil in your diesel car but the Feds don't like that as it is not taxed as
motor fuel, Several times I have put motor oil in diesel engines when I have run out of fuel.) Personally I would use whatever is cheapest for that area, temperature range and manufacturers recommendation. This means #2 for the most part.
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:49 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Same Boat?

Re: What additive can I put into kerosene to run a diesel engine? Quote [+] #

Hey Ozzie, i'm guessing you are running Jet-A? in which case you will need some extra lube for the pump. The problem is lubricity. Jet fuel is a bit 'dry' and tends to prematurely wear out the injector pump.
About 100ml of 2-stroke oil for a tank full works well.
........What vehicle are you running it in?
Ossie blokeSubscriber (OP)
User ID: 1197465
Australia
12/16/2010 4:01 PM

Re: What additive can I put into kerosene to run a diesel engine? Quote [+] #

Hey Ozzie, i'm guessing you are running Jet-A? in which case you will need some extra lube for the pump. The problem is lubricity. Jet fuel is a bit 'dry' and tends to prematurely wear out the injector pump.
About 100ml of 2-stroke oil for a tank full works well.
........What vehicle are you running it in?
Quoting: Icarus 1137020

The kerosene is from the bowser at a service station and the car is a 13 year old Toyota Land Cruiser Troop Carrier 70 Series 4.2D - [link to en.wikipedia.org]
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:54 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
More

Hey Tom,
As long as you can get highway kero, and it's cheaper, go ahead and run it with a mixture of at least B20 to keep the lubricity up. Kerosene is often used as a thinning (viscosity reducing) agent to help prevent diesel (middle distillate grade #2) and biodiesel fuel gelling in cold weather, but it does reduce the fuel's lubricity as well. Since biodiesel has a very high level of lubricity, the reduction from mixing with kerosene is minimal. With regular petro diesel, care must be taken to avoid over-thinning. To avoid this problem, most fuel distribution centers carry winter diesel (light distillate grade #1) for delivery to fueling stations in cold climates.

Diesel engines, however, are remarkably tolerant of fuel formulations and can run on just about any low volatility oil based fuel, but of course that doesn't mean they should or that it is even legal (tax wise) or beneficial to do so. While the engines themselves (pistons and valves) are more or less indifferent to fuel types, the emissions and injection controls on modern clean diesel engines would likely be damaged by using any fuel other than ULSD or B5.

For illustration purposes only, following is a (mostly complete) list of fuels that can be burned in a diesel engine:

Diesel #1
Diesel #2
Diesel #4
ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel)
Biodiesel (from B5 to B100)
Kerosene
Home heating oil
Civil jet fuel (Jet A-1, Jet A, Jet B)
Military jet fuel(JP-4,JP-5,JP-8)
SVO (Straight Vegetable

EDIT:
The Author DOES NOT SPECIFY what additives to use in each case!
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:57 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Kerosene

Can you use kerosene instead of diesel?

A diesel engine will run fine on kerosene. If you are going to run it on kerosene for an extended amount of time you might want to put some lubricant additive in with it. Winter diesel is various blends of diesel and kerosene.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_use_kerosene_instead_of_diesel#ixzz1GwKD65KO
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:58 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
all the Above from:

http://www.google.com/search?q=safe%20mix%20of%20Kerosene%20to%20Diesel%20in%20a%20Toyota&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np
__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-18-2011, 06:04 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,554
Lastly

"Just above Diesel fuel in the middle distillate category is Kerosene. Like Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, Kerosene has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel. But unlike Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, which is too thick, Kerosene is too thin to work well as an engine fuel. The thickness of the diesel fuel itself acts as a lubricant to prevent wear of the engine's fuel injectors. This lubricating quality of diesel fuel is why some Old-timers still refer to it as "Diesel Oil." Adding a common lubricant to Kerosene usually decreases its ignition quality."


"An older turbodiesel like yours probably wouldn't mind being run on 10% turbine oil cut with 90% diesel. Most folks I hear what work at airports have ample access to 'waste' jet fuel (basically kerosene) from checking water traps. If you're looking for free fuel, I would look to base something on 'waste' jet fuel first, with ample lubricity additive. Do your homework & look at the Spicer lubricity study first, then decide what you want to do."

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2199335#Post2199335

I'd probably "Dose" the Kerosene with Biodiesel (If available) say 15 to 25%.
If not I'd use TCW3 (Two Cycle Marine Oil ,Like for Outboards.) 20 to 30%.

__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128

Last edited by compress ignite; 03-18-2011 at 06:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page