Biomass based diesel vs biodiesel - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Phillytwotank · #16 02-17-2015, 08:19 PM

Did they mention that it can be produced from the nastiest of the nasty feed stocks?
Grease trap waste and other brown greases.

Production plants are co located with petrolium refineries and have oil industry support to share infrastructure.

Main by products are crude forms of naptha and other wet hydrocarbon gasses.

tjts1 · #17 02-17-2015, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillytwotank

Did they mention that it can be produced from the nastiest of the nasty feed stocks?
Grease trap waste and other brown greases.

Production plants are co located with petrolium refineries and have oil industry support to share infrastructure.

Main by products are crude forms of naptha and other wet hydrocarbon gasses.

NexBtl is using palm oil in its Singapore refinery and I'm not sure what in europe. Propel in California is using talow, chicken and fish guts. I don't want to imagine what this stuff looks like when it enters the plant.

sleepstar · #18 02-18-2015, 12:08 AM

thanks for all that data. it seems like the product has lubricity additives that at least bring it up to d2 specs, and we lose the biodiesel benefits. i think i may get some b100 and blend a little in with each fillup

strelnik · #19 02-18-2015, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

NexBtl is using palm oil in its Singapore refinery and I'm not sure what in europe. Propel in California is using talow, chicken and fish guts. I don't want to imagine what this stuff looks like when it enters the plant.

If this stuff can be made from items which the local/small-time biodiesel maker cannot use, then it's more efficient recycling of stuff AND getting rid of more garbage.

As long as the final product is usable w/o problems like lubricity, more power to it!

tjts1 · #20 02-20-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepstar

thanks for all that data. it seems like the product has lubricity additives that at least bring it up to d2 specs, and we lose the biodiesel benefits. i think i may get some b100 and blend a little in with each fillup

The manufacturer warns against mixing HVO and biodiesel.

Quote:

Since HVO is fully paraffinic, it does not have such good solvency characteristics as fossil diesel fuels which in almost all cases contain 15 ... 30% total aromatics. In Swedish Class 1 the total aromatics are limited to <5%. The less severe solvency may have benefits regarding material compatibility but on the other hand possible impurities existing in fuels may precipitate easier.
It is not recommended to store a blend of HVO and FAME. This is caused by the fact that there may be some impurities in FAME, and there is a risk for precipitation if FAME is mixed with low aromatic or aromatic free fuel. Precipitation may take place even at temperatures higher than cloud point of the blend.
Due to limited tank capacity the same tank might be used for FAME and HVO. If the same tank is used either for FAME or HVO, normal procedure with quality change should be performed, like as low as possible level of FAME in storage tank before changing to HVO. Blending temperatures should be well above both fuels' cloud points. And when changing back to FAME, HVO level in storage tank, should be as low level as possible.There is also a remarkable difference in densities between FAME and HVO which may have a negative effect on blending behaviour.
When HVO and FAME are blended into fossil diesel fuel, it is recommended to start by mixing diesel fuel and HVO since HVO and diesel fuel are chemically close to each other. After that FAME may be added to this blend.
A maximum 7 % of high quality FAME (total monoglyserides max 0.3 wt%) can be mixed with HVO as defined by TS 15940. Precipitation risk of FAME’s impurities increases if more or low quality FAME is used. CONCAWE has given a recommendations for EN590 diesel SMG (saturated monoglyceride) content [Engelen et.al, 2009] as well as Annex C in the FAME standard EN 14214.
These recommenddations can be used also when blending FAME with HVO. Swedish class 1 and HVO behave similarly when blending with FAME so the same SMG levels in final blend can be required also for HVO. The max level of SMG coming from FAME can be 20 mg/kg in final blend.

From page 23 of HVO handbook.

A member on another forum found out Propel Fuels adds a product called "Hitec 4142" to the HVO for lubricity. Hopefully they use enough of it so it doesn't cause any issues but they're still sticking to the US 520 micron standard instead of the European 460 micron standard.
PDF info on the additive

Cloudsurfer · #21 02-23-2015, 01:35 AM

Very interesting. I grabbed some of this myself the other day at my Propel station. Car certainly seems happy on it.

It's unfortunate that this stuff isn't so great in lubricity, especially being that it doesn't sound like it mixes all that well with bio-D or any sort of veggie oil.

BKe350 · #22 02-28-2015, 06:40 PM

I just bought a 2011 e350 Bluetec, and noticed HPR for sale. Per Propel's website, it meets ASTM D975 requirements. Per MB, "If the diesel fuel meets the required ASTM D975 standard, it is acceptable for use with your BlueTec diesel."

Does anyone have any concerns with using this? I am not too concerned given certification, and Propel states online that they add a lubricator to it (though I am not sure of the final lubricity rating). Car still has low mileage, so just don't want to do anything to harm it.

Also, price for HPR was 2.95, which was 10 cents less than standard diesel that day.

sleepstar · #23 02-28-2015, 09:07 PM

if it meets the standards i would have no problem using it with any motor. if it didnt meet the standards you'd have to sign waivers to be able to use it, like B100.

tjts1 · #24 03-01-2015, 03:38 AM

You can run 100% HPR or any ratio mixed with regular #2 diesel without harming the bluetec. In its literature MB calls this stuff HVO or renewable diesel.
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/biodiesel_Brochure5.pdf

Just refilled with HPR and managed 35.6mpg over 943 miles (tank plus two NATO jerrycans) of driving in Bay Area traffic. Thats about 2mpg less than my average but i think i spent a lot more time in traffic than usual so I dont know. This fuel has 5% less btus per gallon than #2 diesel but at the same time it burns more efficiently because of the higher cetane. I was also flooring it more often just for fun. So far I think its a wash for economy.

HPR was 40c cheaper than #2 and 45c cheaper than regular unleaded.
http://i.imgur.com/EetQa17.jpg?1

BillGrissom · #25 03-01-2015, 05:43 PM

Exactly what I was waiting for. I filled up today (7 gal) @ $2.69/gal, compared to unleaded gas currently at $3.20/gal. Gas is unusually high in CA currently due to a refinery fire, labor slow-down, and limited market because special mixtures are mandated. A Propel station is 4 miles from my house. Cheap, renewable source, more power, smoother, less emissions. What's not to like, other than lubricity meets the bare minimum. I am not enamored with diesels and have just kept mine thru high fuel prices just in the hope of future cheap bio fuels, which may have arrived, at least for us in Sacramento and East Bay. I expect Propel will expand if the public likes it.

Dieselkraut23 · #26 03-06-2015, 12:50 AM

Ive been running this for a while and so far I have about 1-2 more mpg which is odd because everyone says it should be less........oh well I'll wait for more people to update mpg's they're getting.

Shortsguy1 · #27 03-06-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

You can run 100% HPR or any ratio mixed with regular #2 diesel without harming the bluetec. In its literature MB calls this stuff HVO or renewable diesel.
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/biodiesel_Brochure5.pdf

Does that document explicitly say you can run HPR/HVO at 100%? I could not find that statement. It focuses on standard biodiesel and doesn't really say much about HPR/HVO other than defining briefly. Perhaps I missed it.

tjts1 · #28 03-06-2015, 01:23 PM

Its perfectly safe in any diesel engine, not just mercedes. HVO is chemically identical to #2 and meets the same ASMT D975 specifications, unlike biodiesel. This stuff is not new, its been around for years in Europe.

The reason they only talk about the dangers of biodiesel is because HVO is perfectly safe.

Quote:

Daimler AG see a particularly promising potential for fuels based on hydra*ted vegetable oils (HVO), and at a later stage BTL (biomass-to-liquid) fuels. These are fuels whose chemical and physical characteristics are similar to those of high-quality diesel fuel, and which can therefore be used in the highly efficient diesel engines of commercial vehicles. They also reduce the nitrogen oxide and parti*culate content in the exhaust gases. In cooperation with the oil company OMV and two customer fleets (DHL and SSB-Stuttgart), Daimler is now commencing fleet trials of HVO with Mercedes-Benz trucks and Mercedes-Benz buses.

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-657323-1-991463-1-0-0-0-0-0-11702-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html

Quote:

At the event, the companies presented the initial results of their joint pilot test project focusing on fuel from sustainable production. Since mid-2008, 14 series-produced Mercedes-Benz trucks and buses that run exclusively on sustainably produced NExBTL renewable diesel have been in service under everyday conditions in Germany. The vehicles have already covered one million kilometers.

The results from the first year of testing show that the fuel works perfectly in Mercedes-Benz trucks and buses and is tolerated very well by the engines," says Dr. Manfred Schuckert, company strategist at Daimler AG. "This is very important for our customers because the previously used biodiesel from the so-called first generation of biofuels often leads to more frequent maintenance checks, which in turn leads to higher costs for the vehicle operators."

http://www.dhl.com/en/press/releases/releases_2009/other/090609.html

Shortsguy1 · #29 03-06-2015, 04:57 PM

Thanks for answering my question. Now if it would only make it to the central coast of CA. After reading that MB document on regular biodiesel, I am a bit more hesitant about using it.

BillGrissom · #30 03-08-2015, 07:01 AM

I can definitely say that my 1985 300D runs much quieter and smoother on the Diesel HPR than it ever did on regular diesel. That is after just the initial 7 gal fill. I added another 6 gal today since I went by the station. It is so quiet now that you can barely tell it is a diesel with the windows down, sitting at a stoplight. Before, at 65 mph I always heard the engine too much. Now, I don't even notice the engine with the radio on moderately. I don't know if it is the higher cetane rating or it helped clean out my injection pump. I know the injectors were already clean since I removed them a year ago, and they were pristine inside. Downside, the price went up in a week from $2.69 to $2.99/gal.