Thanks for the feedback.

The kind of riveted joint I envisage between the floorpan and the sill, would be structurally strong. It would also allow me to build up inside of rockers first with POR/glass where metal has flaked off reducing thickness.

The rear wheel well repairs would still likley be weld repaired by shop. I could buy a MIG or stick welder, but the one repair needs complex shape to be fabbed.

The front covers of the rockers would probably be done with glass. Probably cut off loose pieces, coat everything with rust converter/POR then laminate with epoxy and glass. Finally more POR and then undercoating. One side was already repaired with a lot of filler it seems, when I had car repainted.

The firewall to cabin wall seam would be hard to weld without removing fender and some interior dismantling of hoses cable etc. Not sure how much that joint contributes to structural strength.

I wouldn't need a safety any time soon since I would keep car (they are only done when car changes hands), but sounds like from what Zach posted that rivets may be acceptable in our area. By the time floor covering and carpets are back in, an inspector would be hard pressed to see it anyway!

All of this just a backup in case I don't find a buyer as-is. At that point the car becomes my new hobby! It's too good to go to wreckers.

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Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Just by means of clarification, Graham lives in the province of Ontario and I live in adjoining Quebec province. In Canada, motor vehicle codes (for licensing and traffic regulations) are unique to each province.

When we refer to 'safety' inspections, in the context of passenger cars these are not the annual or periodic inspections (like MOTs in the UK for example) in other countries, or in some US states.

In Ontario you do the inspection whenever the car changes owners or enters the province from somewhere else (sale or owner move). In Quebec it is done when a car comes into the province from outside, or is off the road for more than 24 continuous months. Other than that, it will only be done if requested by a police officer or transport safety inspector (the guys who do roadside checks on heavy trucks).

The only time a full structural inspection is done is when a car is presented to be re-registered for road use after a declaration of total loss by an insurance company.

Most repair shops in the province are licensed to perform the Ontario safety inspection. In Quebec it is mostly done by specialized depots that are not permitted to do repair work (to prevent conflict of interest).

The Quebec inspection is a dreaded ritual that includes a test of brake performance and balance at all four wheels. The inspectors are always impressed when I bring in an old Mercedes (they know me, I have put six - w123, w116 and w126 - through over the years, as well as three old Volvos), when they invariably pass the brake standard on the first try. Some domestic cars under four years old fail that test.

More than anyone wants to know, I imagine, but I'm in the mood to type....

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Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

I'm in the mood for typing => could be a song - could be developed in to the peach parts theme!

I'll just throw out my reaction (to all of that lovelly typing) and see where it lands. I've only every visited the US of A - I've never been to Canada - but I'm guessing some of the "see you in court" attitude must have rubbed off with you guys 'cos it most certainly has done so here and we're further away.

Have you guys ever heard of a court case where repairs to a car have been proven to be sub standard and at fault for an accident? I'm assuming that where there are no rules from the government there is a kind of self governing system of precedent that steps in instead.

I suppose it would be a little bit like the situation here where it is not illegal not to sweep your chimney every year but in the event of a chimney catching fire and burning down your house; if you don't have proof of having your swept chimney (in the last year) for the insurance company they won't pay out.

Are there similar dangers of that kind of conflict in Canada with structural repairs to cars?

EDIT sorry to sound like an old fuss pot - I'm just trying to work out what is acceptable or not in the absence of governmental guidlines.

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

An update:

Restoration guy came by today and picked up my car. He will have it for about 4 weeks. Rust will be weld repaired. Cost is undetermined He will keep track and provide updates as he goes. I will do finishing work and reassembly. I can see it getting into $3k region

Should probably have sold it. I will now try and use it for next 3-5 years and reduce wear and tear on my newer and older cars (E320 and 350SL have been getting more use than is normal!)

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Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

One way to look at it would be that it may not be any worse than the 'frictional' costs you would incur in getting another car:

- In the case of an older Mercedes bought in a no-rust state -- the cost to transport or drive back, customs, and the inevitable work needed when it arrives to get it up to snuff.

- In the case of another, newer car, the sales tax and increased insurance premiums.

In any case, I hope things go well with the restorer.

__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

X2 ^^^^^^

In my experience it is always better the devil you know.

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

I was just thinking that this might apply to women as well.

Back on topic the best way to protect what you have repaired and prolong the cars general life in Canada is a mix of grease and oil sprayed inside the rockers and on any other external area of patches outside the passenger cabin. The oil creeps all over the place. Driving on dusty unpaved roads thickens up the mix further as well.

Do not cover or allow your guy to cover any existing rust with any form of rubberized undercaoting. The rust underneath seems to accelerate with that stuff. Nothing really stops rust totally but a covering of grease and oil seems to slow it down a phenominal amount. We still have a air powered hydralic pump system that pressurises the grease to 3,500 pounds and sprays it out the nozzle. We used to buy 30 gallon pails of the grease and graphite mix as it was called specifically blended for this purpose. The pump and the assembly provide a lid for those containers. You can make your own mix and spray it with a 19.00 undercoating gun. Any intended paintwork should be completed before this form of rustproofing.

I would not have replaced this car. But it is useful, so I hope it works out. Once rust is fixed, I will have a project next Spring (once things warm up) to pull seats; POR floors; reinstall dash, undercoat inside (aftermarket) front fenders, reinstall fender liners etc etc.

Been though this before on the 107

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

They main reason I am using this guy, is that he is familiar with and uses POR15. We Are going to try a similar product this time. It is Canadian made, sold by Napa in Canada, at about 1/2 the price of POR. It is a polyurethane as is POR.

We have used Rust Check & Krown on this car, but it didn't help that much. In places, the original MB rust preventive coating is still there (Waxoyl?). Napa sells a coating too. I do want to spray something more long lasting into the rockers.

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Rust Check and Krown are both good products, but there is no such thing as rust proofing, not in any part of the world that uses road salt in the amounts we do here in mid to eastern Canada. The best we can hope for is some amount of rust prevention (and slowing down of any already under way).

However, the best product in the world relies on the quality of the application. It takes a fair amount of time to carefully and completely treat a car. I used to go to Krown with my Volvo GLT back in mid-90s -- they took about 45 minutes on the car, and it was a drive-in, drive out shop. You could see the operator taking care with his technique.

One year I got a discount coupon for a new (and well reviewed) chain, Metropolitain, so I gave them a shot. I was stunned when the car emerged in 17 minutes (unlike Krown, the spraying area had no viewing glass). And the car went through in an assembly-line fashion... which was how they justified the quick run, when I asked. A few months later I had the car painted, a colour change, and we pulled the interior door panels. Their spray was about 2" wide, across the middle of the inside of the door skin, and the product hadn't crept at all. In other words, as useless as mammaries on a bull.

I now believe that the only effective way is an oil-based product applied annually. The oil-based products creep into crevices where moisture can sit. My mechanic does it and he takes his time. He actually uses two different formulations, a thicker one for the underside and come inside areas, and a thinner one for areas that need a finer spray.

Were your rocker panels 'drilled' on the bottoms of the door jambs? If yes then they should have been able to get a decent amount of product into those spaces. If they didn't, either the operator didn't use the appropriate nozzle on the gun, or he was moving too fast to ensure complete coverage.

All that being said, these old cars have some rust traps that will defy even the best efforts.

__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

I have used both Krown and Rust Check. Krown is a drive through as you described for Metrolpolitan. Rust check is an open shop and you can see better what they are doing. There are hole plugs on the door pillars. I suspect they sprayed the rockers through the holes on the bottom that MB installed.

The guy that is doing the welding said he would spray the rockers for me if I wished. Otherwise I may find a smaller shop that will do what I want or do it myself (may mean buying a bigger compressor)

Question: There are many holes in the rockers and other places on the underside of the car, in wheel wells and floor pans that have those quite large original rubber plugs. Some of my holes don't have plugs. Should every one of the holes have a rubber plug?

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Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Yes if there is no tube running out of the hole (a drain location) there should be a plug. They seem to fall out when the area starts to rust.

The plugs can be had from the dealer, but the parts lookup isn't easy. I had to replace some that were missing on my TD when I got it and the parts listings aren't very clear (the parts guy turned the screen around and showed me what he was trying to decipher).

As I recall we sort of winged it, but as they aren't expensive it wasn't a huge deal. Measure your openings before you go to order, that will help the parts guy to approximate I think.

The new ones I got aren't as rubberized, more hard plastic and very cheap quality. I was not impressed. You might want to put a "WTB" ad up in the used parts section and ask one of the forum members who does the pick and pulls in California to get you some nice, still-rubbery used OE Cali ones instead.

__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

There are some EPC pictures here

http://mb.ilcats.ru/part/class/1/ccode/F/cat/68K/type/123/subtype/130/group/68

(Can be found via EverythingBenz - Mercedes-Benz Forum and Web Search Using Google)

That show the rubber plugs and all - unfortunately it doesn't show where they all go!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

I bought some of the plugs a while back. They were all nice soft rubber.

#80 is the drain type fitting that looks like it is supposed to suck as car goes. Now should there be water in the rockers? Are there drains that end up there? Anyway, I have two of those and they are good.

I also bought a number of the #65,s. I think the other openings in the rockers (side panels in MB speak) use those. I replaced the missing ones a while back.

Bu under the car, there are some openings - I think they may go into the X-beams. Some of those are missing and one opening is right under the driver side floor area that rusted away.

My dealer parts guy will I am sure get me what I need. Too bad they don't list diameters so we can measure them up.

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Update.
Quite a bit of the rust repair welding has been done. There are pictures on shop's site:

1985 Mercedes 300D - Last Chance Auto Restore

Comments welcomed!

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5