I am just another statistic with the cold weather starting blues. It's time to put my car away for winter anyway, but I cannot get it started to do so! It appears that around 20 degrees F is my go / no-go point. I've read all recent posts and so know about the glow timing, etc. Also, I had a warm day Sunday and got it started- then filled up with #1 with tank near empty and drove a 180 mile round trip. But now we're in another cold snap, and I can't get started. At least this time, with #1 in the tank, I'm getting "chugging" and white smoke, but there's never quite enough combustion for the engine to keep running.

The "series" glow plug setup on the old 617 engines is really pathetic! Last night in the dark I noticed the resistive wires between plugs 1-2 and 4-5 glowing quite a bright red- good indication that all plugs are glowing too- but these wires are simply wasting power that could otherwise be going to the GP's.

So, two improvements are in store for Pearl. The 12 volt parallel glow plug upgrade kit, and a new starter. Which leads to my question- can someone explain reduction gear starters to me? Someone mentioned they're using a "Mean Green" starter- I checked their site- looks interesting, but wouldn't a reduction gear on a starter result in slower cranking? More cranking torque yes, but reduction in actual output shaft speed? So is this really a good way to go, or should I simply go for the MB Heavy Duty replacement?

My '89 VW Golf Diesel had a reduction starter (I only know this because a mechanic told me). This car always started great, and it's go / no-go point was more like -15 degrees F, and even then, with some work, it would always start. This car was laid to rest at 360,000 Miles due to floor rusting out and in it's whole lifetime I had to replace the starter twice, and it was a Bosch reduction gear starter. I just don't understand why, or if these would be better than a normal starter.

Dave

'76 White 300D W115 "Pearl"

I think if you have a new or properly rebuilt MB starter for your car, with good battery and cables and connections.... you will be in good shape...
If your car won't start with the new PGlow plugs.... and be sure to run the cleaner reamer into there when changing them out...
Then for really cold days I suggest you get the spray starter fluid out and put a 3 second burst into the air intake tube....preferably at the same time someone hits the starter button.....
This has been discussed..... lots of people who can't figure out the physics will immediately post warnings of blowing up your engine , etc...but you can do a search and find JimSmiths' definitive post... which agrees with me...

A traditional starter is directly engaged with the flywheel, and as such requires a great deal of torque just to get going - think of starting off on a bicycle in high gear. That starting torque requires a very high current draw, hence the need for good wiring and clean connections.

A gear reduction starter uses a smaller starter motor that spins at much higher RPMs, these higher RPMs are reduced through a gear box and torque is proportionally magnified - you can climb any hill on a bicycle if you are in a low enough gear, but your legs will be flying around.

I replaced the stock starter on the 390 V8 in my old pickup when I rebuilt it this year with a gear reduction unit, and the difference was absolutely amazing. The gear reduction unit is smaller, lighter, spins the engine faster and draws less current.

If/when the starter fails on my 300SD I would definitely seek out a gear reduction unit for it.

Kevin

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'85 300SD

kevin , So you wanted your 390 to sound like a Chrysler ? LOLOLOL

Do they actually make gear reduction starters for a 1976 MB Diesel ?

Yes, if one is availible please post a link........they do work far superior on gassers, particularly the high compression modified ones that are typicly hard to start, and for Big Inch Harley-davidson stroker engines the stock starters can't even budge.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Try this.

If it doesn't work, then you'll have to go to www.mean-green.com and navigate through their site. The 240D/300D starter is under "special applications foreign."

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Rick Miley
2014 Tesla Model S
2018 Tesla Model 3
2017 Nissan LEAF
Former MB: 99 E300, 86 190E 2.3, 87 300E, 80 240D, 82 204D Euro
Chain Elongation References

wow thats pricey...................but I am sure they outperform the originals.......

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Thanks for all the input. So- the smaller sized starter spins much faster than stock, and this speed is reduced to "proper" cranking speed for the application, with a corresponding multiplication of torque. Makes sense. So, I'm convinced it's the way to go. Pearl will be Mean Green equipped! Should be an easy project once I get her into the barn. BTW- we're having another "heat wave" today- 31 degrees F with nasty freezing rain. Pearl started right up but the rain is making it too slippery to drive her up the ramps! I need a warm and dry day now. Maybe I need to move to Arizona

Dave

Coldwar,

Yes the resistance wires between the GP waste a lot of energy. I could never understand why MB used 1.5 volt plugs and use the resistors to drop the 12 volts to 6 volts. Its as if the GP were left over from 6 volt systems.

In fact why did MB use series GP at all? It makes starting less reliable because if one burns out, the engine won't start if cold. With parallel GP if 1 or 2 GP go open, the engine will still probably start.

I've put paralleal GP in engines that were equipped originally with series plugs and the engine started well with much less of a wait for the GP to get hot.

P E H

I suppose they could have been the same plugs carried over from the old Ponton Diesels, but I don't know if those were 12V or 6V systems. I remember reading another post here that mentions that the same plugs were used on the 240D, 300D, and a 6 Cylinder European truck engine in the 70's, so to get the voltage right, there were 3, 2 and 1 series resistor wires respectively. As for why do it in series at all, I have an uninformed theory- batteries in the 60's and 70's were not near as good as the ones today, and I think the series circuit would have a lot less of a sudden high-current drain. There would be lower current for a longer period of time- same amount of power used overall, but less of a sudden "wallop" on a stone cold battery. That long slow current would also serve to warm up the battery somewhat, raising it's efficiency, and making it more prepared to deliver that "super-wallop" to the starter.

With today's sealed batteries, it is much less likely that a sudden hit of strong current would warp the internal plates, so a fast full voltage parallel glow-plug circuit is now possible. That's just my theory.

In the 70's, VW and GM used parallel glow plugs, but VW had a much smaller engine to pre-heat and crank, and the GM's with the legendary Oldsmobile V8 Diesel used two batteries- still upholds my theory. I can't imagine MB doing anything "dumb"- there seems to be a reasoned approach to everything

Dave

"I can't imagine MB doing anything "dumb"- there seems to be a reasoned approach to everything "----Dave

I think that also.... and would apply the same thought to the starter... How many millions of MB's.....and how many billions of ' starts' have been done with the original starter ?
I paid $100 plus tax for my Bosch rebuilt starter...and it made all the difference... like night and day....and cost $200 less than that Greenmean..
The MB starters also have huge brushes ( pieces of carbon used to rub against the armature )... I just doubt that the overall quality of those gear reduction starters would be as good as a new MB starter....

Same could be said about every other manufactureer out there. Nobody said anything was inherantly wrong with MB starter design, just that it is basicly how they have been done since the early gasolene engines.....

Point of compairison is a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.....long stroke hard cranking engine.....OEM for early models was much like the MB and every other car out there, now take and stroke that engine and add big bore cylinders, you could almost double the Displacement.....well stock wo't cut it....one way of making a more powerful starter is gear reduction....a smaller more efficient motor using gear reduction to make torque......you can actually have your cake and eat it too with this design.......many new vehicles incorporate it.

THe difference in price is these are all new and most of the Bosch starters are rebuilds....... A more powerfull faster spinning starter will work far better in marginal situations such as very cold weather and mean the difference between driving away and calling for a ride.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Yes, assuming the quality of the gears, bearings and brushes are comparable to the MB which is it replacing... but the MB starters are made like the blocks... the actual bushing on the ends is a replaceable item... and as I mentioned .... the brushes are huge.... so they last a long time.... it is often other things in the starter which go wrong before the brushes...
My 74 Harley Superglide did not have a starter... and the carb was not set properly from the dealer.... and I did not have the " body fall " approach a Harley needs... I was kicking it with my leg like my 500 Suzuki two stroke... it was taking me 25 kicks to start it... I had a bruise 2 inches by 4 inches across the bottom of my right foot.... I later found an old Harley factory trained mechanic that set it correctly.... Two kicks every time after that...

I have hyper extended my knee twice kicking mine over, when the kicker gear slipped.........It has a gear reduction starter now replacing the original Hitatchi direct type motor....spins it far easier......

I do have the body mass to kick a harley....5'10" 210 lbs but age is catching up to me and I rather have a working electric starter these days.

True without actually seeing the unit its hard to judge its quality. But given a choice between a gear reduction starter adn a brand new oem type I would go gear reduction every time. Have personal experience on 2 cars and my harley with both types....

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I just spent a few days with my friend who has lived in Alaska more than 30 years; he says, "Get a gear reduction starter, period." Faster cranking = better compression.