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  #1  
Old 03-24-2005, 01:53 PM
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Old-style injector nozzles seem superior

I recently did an experiment with the injectors in my 87 300D. I had been battling a significant combustion knock at idle for over a year and just about trying everything. The only thing that temporarily killed my knock was bringing the car down to a lower elevation (over here I'm at 4500-5000 ft) or running the car on Diesel Purge. Twice I inspected and balanced my injectors to no avail.

Recently I was also rebuilding the injectors in my two W123 diesels and I noticed the nozzles used in those engines are different from the ones used in the OM60x engines. The OM616/617 engines use Bosch 240/ nozzles that have a crosshole on the side of the tip of the pintle and an exit hole on the tip of the pintle. The OM602/603 engines use Bosch 265 nozzles whose pintles have no holes and they just have a longer tip. From my testing I found the 240/ nozzles produce a very fine spray while the 265 nozzles spray more like a garden hose with a thumb placed over the opening and I tested both used and new 265 nozzles. So I decided to use the 240/ nozzles even though they are not the right part for this vehicle, but I'm quite pleased with how the car runs now. The combustion noise at idle has been noticably subdued and it's a lot more steady and consistent. The car has about the same acceleration as before. The only possible downside that I noticed is that during deceleration just before the engine reaches idle speed the diesel clattering now comes and goes but I think I'm hearing it less as I drive the car more and it's possible it was caused by carbon buildup which may be getting cleaned out.

My question is, why did MB or Bosch get rid of the crossholes while designing the 265 nozzles? IMO they are essential for producing that fine spray that the 240/ nozzles have.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2005, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselAddict
I recently did an experiment with the injectors in my 87 300D. I had been battling a significant combustion knock at idle for over a year and just about trying everything. The only thing that temporarily killed my knock was bringing the car down to a lower elevation (over here I'm at 4500-5000 ft) or running the car on Diesel Purge. Twice I inspected and balanced my injectors to no avail.

Recently I was also rebuilding the injectors in my two W123 diesels and I noticed the nozzles used in those engines are different from the ones used in the OM60x engines. The OM616/617 engines use Bosch 240/ nozzles that have a crosshole on the side of the tip of the pintle and an exit hole on the tip of the pintle. The OM602/603 engines use Bosch 265 nozzles whose pintles have no holes and they just have a longer tip. From my testing I found the 240/ nozzles produce a very fine spray while the 265 nozzles spray more like a garden hose with a thumb placed over the opening and I tested both used and new 265 nozzles. So I decided to use the 240/ nozzles even though they are not the right part for this vehicle, but I'm quite pleased with how the car runs now. The combustion noise at idle has been noticably subdued and it's a lot more steady and consistent. The car has about the same acceleration as before. The only possible downside that I noticed is that during deceleration just before the engine reaches idle speed the diesel clattering now comes and goes but I think I'm hearing it less as I drive the car more and it's possible it was caused by carbon buildup which may be getting cleaned out.

My question is, why did MB or Bosch get rid of the crossholes while designing the 265 nozzles? IMO they are essential for producing that fine spray that the 240/ nozzles have.
Having rebuilt MANY injectors for people, I've seen this same thing. The 265 in the later 602/603 engines has a long pintle that is similar to the older diesel nozzles and to the later VW ones.

Two things, the 265 has a different flow rating than the 240/ and the 603 has a different pre-chamber dispurser. Their "theory" is that don't want "too fine" a mist as it negates what the dispurser does, so the more concentrated flow from the 265 is intended to be directed to the dispurser ball and atomize from the collision. If you look at charts of "proper" spray from an IDI injector, it's not very atomized. The pre-chamber ball is supposed to do that.

The reason is probably because the pre-chamber lasts a LOT longer than the nozzles and cost about the same between the engines. Making nozzles like the 265 is cheaper than making the 240/ with the precise center and cross holes. So they can make them cheaper and save a LOT on mfg costs and pass off the fine atomization to a long-term part of the engine.

Anyway, like you, I've tried the 240/ in not only the 265 applications but also the 193, both to positive effect.

Only problem might be that the flow is different and could cause some issues down the road (but it seems some of that could be mitigated for with pump adjustments and so forth) and finding the 240/ nozzles is impossible as the only thing currently available in NEW is India made.

Soooooo....., just when you find something that works great for SVO/WVO and atomizes well in 603's and VW's with better mileage and slightly increased power, then Bosch slams the door shut. Assh*les!
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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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  #3  
Old 03-24-2005, 09:55 PM
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Your explanation of why the 265 nozzle can be crappier and still work well makes sense, though I don't think an injector can atomize fuel too well (literally). I would say the more atomization from the injector the better regardless of what the dispurser ball in the prechamber expects.

Which vehicles use the 193 nozzle?

About the build quality, I would agree that the Indian 265 nozzles are crap. I ordered 6 of them the other day and the spray pattern was worse than from my German nozzles with over 150K miles on them and the worst thing was the huge variation in friction between the pintle and the nozzle. Some pintles were stuck inside so tight I had to slam the tips of the nozzles on the table to get them out. I returned this junk the next day. BUT, I was quite pleased with the quality of new 240/ nozzles, even the indian ones. They were clearly built to higher standards and most sprayed properly. Of the 9 that I tested, only 2 were less than satisfactory. I have only tested them new though, and I have no results as to how long they last. What kind of problems did you have with the indian nozzles, particularly with the 240/ ones?
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  #4  
Old 03-24-2005, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselAddict
.....I would say the more atomization from the injector the better regardless of what the dispurser ball in the prechamber expects.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselAddict
......BUT, I was quite pleased with the quality of new 240/ nozzles, even the indian ones. They were clearly built to higher standards and most sprayed properly. Of the 9 that I tested, only 2 were less than satisfactory. I have only tested them new though, and I have no results as to how long they last. What kind of problems did you have with the indian nozzles, particularly with the 240/ ones?
Have had really bad luck with them keeping their pop-pressure and pattern after just a few K miles. The pressure is likely due to un-even seating that is lapped-in under load conditions in a few hundred miles. They might keep their pressure after a second shimming a few K miles after new, but the spray is hard to get around. The German ones were so precisely pre-lapped that they held their adjustment for 150K AND sprayed a perfect pattern. The good old days (when s**t just worked.)

They "might" be making them better now that they've had howls of complaints too.
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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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  #5  
Old 03-24-2005, 10:59 PM
ML320 The Best
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Hi!
193 and 273 nozzle Are used VW diesel.

I use 161 on my 190D 2.2
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  #6  
Old 03-25-2005, 08:33 AM
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So gentlemen, which IDI nozzles would flow more fuel to the 617.951/952 engine? I don't care where they come from as far as which vehicle. I need a bigger orifice so I can send more fuel to my intercooled engine. I do want atomization and so if I can get a bigger nozzle I would also consider shimming the injectors for a higher pop pressure. I'd rather research this route first before turning up the pump...

Does anyone know where the bigger nozzles are?

Jim
'82 300SD
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  #7  
Old 03-25-2005, 12:40 PM
300sdlguy's Avatar
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Would also like to know the same for the 603 engine, as I need new injectors as well.

Where is one to go to make sure they can get quality injectors replaced/rebuilt that will last longer than a few thousand miles?
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1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head
1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head
1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2005, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300sdlguy
Would also like to know the same for the 603 engine, as I need new injectors as well.

Where is one to go to make sure they can get quality injectors replaced/rebuilt that will last longer than a few thousand miles?
I'd be willing to bet there are more than a few people interested. I'll also bet if the source comes out, it'll be out here first.
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2005, 02:12 PM
ML320 The Best
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Hi !
Please if some one can make contact to this guys.
http://www.coloradobiodiesel.com/injectors/index.html
Look to me are very good on Diesel Injectors.
Once I send mail to them and get reply are very busy.
There are talking : NA31 - NA33 and NA38 Nozzle.
I dont have idea what mean and what kind Nozzle are.

Regards
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2005, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ML320 The Best
Hi !
Please if some one can make contact to this guys.
http://www.coloradobiodiesel.com/injectors/index.html
Look to me are very good on Diesel Injectors.
Once I send mail to them and get reply are very busy.
There are talking : NA31 - NA33 and NA38 Nozzle.
I dont have idea what mean and what kind Nozzle are.

Regards
Well, that's my site and yes, I am very good at setting up injectors. Problem is, I currently am not that busy just because I cannot get German nozzles. Might do a few sets a week for people, enough work to make it just under poverty level.

If I can ever find a good consistent source of anything BUT India nozzles, I'll start advertising again (I don't advertise and don't even "plug" my product since I can't currently deliver anyway.)

About once a month, I order ONE 240/ nozzle from a different distributor, hoping I'll find a lost-cache of German ones (and then buy all the nozzles they have) or I'll get some India ones that actually work. No luck so far, but am ever hopefull.

I need to update the website, but one thing I still do is re-furb and set-balance them for customers. If you send yours in, I dis-assy, chem-strip, ultrasonically clean, re-furb the nozzles if they're not too far gone (most that have under 150K on them do well with this), re-assy and pop-test and balance them as a set to +/-2bar.

If you have one or two bad nozzles, I have some used ones that are good nozzles that I can replace them with, but usually when one or two are so worn that they do not spray correctly, the rest are soon to follow.
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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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  #11  
Old 03-25-2005, 03:26 PM
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Hey Tom,

I (c m searls)am still waiting for the green light from you for the injectors for my 87 300SDL...all I need is them to get it back running. Just want to make sure they are balanced and made with quality nozzles. Once they are done I will send the injectors I have and the $$$.
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Mercedes Fleet:
2004 CL600 Designo Espresso SPORT
2004 S600 Designo Espresso SPORT/Lorinser Pkg.
1999 S320
1988 300TE
1972 280SEL 4.5
Diesel Fleet:
2014 GL350 Blutec
1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head
1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head
1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K
1984 Lincoln Mark VII Fact BMW Turbo Diesel
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2005, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300sdlguy
Hey Tom,

I (c m searls)am still waiting for the green light from you for the injectors for my 87 300SDL...all I need is them to get it back running. Just want to make sure they are balanced and made with quality nozzles. Once they are done I will send the injectors I have and the $$$.
CRAP!! Meant to tell you, your nozzles will be here next week, but I'm thinking we might try the 240/ nozzles for the heck of it? LMK if you want to experiment. They are quieter and will get a little better fuel mileage, but you may see a slight lack in power. LMK if you want to stay stock or try something new. If new, I can probably have a set out to you with good/refurb 240/ nozzles tomorrow.
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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


=========================

"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2005, 04:58 PM
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I guess I will find out myself whether these new nozzles are durable or not. They have a 1 year warranty so before the warranty is over I'll pull my injectors and retest them. I'm hopeful that if they spray good initially they will continue spraying good. I mean they are made of hard metal and I don't see how normal usage with well lubricated fuel would cause a good spraying nozzle to go bad after only a few K miles unless they are exposed to some contamination.

You might be able to get some French nozzles. When I ordered the 240/ nozzles recently I think about a third of them were French. Of the two 240/ nozzles that I returned due to poor performance, one was French and the other was Indian. From my limited testing I couldn't tell a difference in quality between the Indian and French nozzles.
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  #14  
Old 03-25-2005, 05:15 PM
ML320 The Best
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Hi Tom !
Please tell me what mean NA38 Nozzl.
What kind of Nozzl are.
The Nozzl 193 or 293 used on VW Engines are good.
Many years I talk with Mercedes Eng.tell me the 273 if I am not wrong are very good Nozzl and much better from 240.

Regards
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  #15  
Old 03-25-2005, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselAddict
I guess I will find out myself whether these new nozzles are durable or not. They have a 1 year warranty so before the warranty is over I'll pull my injectors and retest them. I'm hopeful that if they spray good initially they will continue spraying good. I mean they are made of hard metal and I don't see how normal usage with well lubricated fuel would cause a good spraying nozzle to go bad after only a few K miles unless they are exposed to some contamination.

You might be able to get some French nozzles. When I ordered the 240/ nozzles recently I think about a third of them were French. Of the two 240/ nozzles that I returned due to poor performance, one was French and the other was Indian. From my limited testing I couldn't tell a difference in quality between the Indian and French nozzles.
I've been able to get them to spray "OK", but after a few K miles, they seem to plug the cross and through holes easier than the German ones. I've had better luck with teh French than with the India, but not a LOT better.
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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol
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