|
|
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Old-style injector nozzles seem superior
I recently did an experiment with the injectors in my 87 300D. I had been battling a significant combustion knock at idle for over a year and just about trying everything. The only thing that temporarily killed my knock was bringing the car down to a lower elevation (over here I'm at 4500-5000 ft) or running the car on Diesel Purge. Twice I inspected and balanced my injectors to no avail.
Recently I was also rebuilding the injectors in my two W123 diesels and I noticed the nozzles used in those engines are different from the ones used in the OM60x engines. The OM616/617 engines use Bosch 240/ nozzles that have a crosshole on the side of the tip of the pintle and an exit hole on the tip of the pintle. The OM602/603 engines use Bosch 265 nozzles whose pintles have no holes and they just have a longer tip. From my testing I found the 240/ nozzles produce a very fine spray while the 265 nozzles spray more like a garden hose with a thumb placed over the opening and I tested both used and new 265 nozzles. So I decided to use the 240/ nozzles even though they are not the right part for this vehicle, but I'm quite pleased with how the car runs now. The combustion noise at idle has been noticably subdued and it's a lot more steady and consistent. The car has about the same acceleration as before. The only possible downside that I noticed is that during deceleration just before the engine reaches idle speed the diesel clattering now comes and goes but I think I'm hearing it less as I drive the car more and it's possible it was caused by carbon buildup which may be getting cleaned out. My question is, why did MB or Bosch get rid of the crossholes while designing the 265 nozzles? IMO they are essential for producing that fine spray that the 240/ nozzles have.
__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual) Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Two things, the 265 has a different flow rating than the 240/ and the 603 has a different pre-chamber dispurser. Their "theory" is that don't want "too fine" a mist as it negates what the dispurser does, so the more concentrated flow from the 265 is intended to be directed to the dispurser ball and atomize from the collision. If you look at charts of "proper" spray from an IDI injector, it's not very atomized. The pre-chamber ball is supposed to do that. The reason is probably because the pre-chamber lasts a LOT longer than the nozzles and cost about the same between the engines. Making nozzles like the 265 is cheaper than making the 240/ with the precise center and cross holes. So they can make them cheaper and save a LOT on mfg costs and pass off the fine atomization to a long-term part of the engine. Anyway, like you, I've tried the 240/ in not only the 265 applications but also the 193, both to positive effect. Only problem might be that the flow is different and could cause some issues down the road (but it seems some of that could be mitigated for with pump adjustments and so forth) and finding the 240/ nozzles is impossible as the only thing currently available in NEW is India made. Soooooo....., just when you find something that works great for SVO/WVO and atomizes well in 603's and VW's with better mileage and slightly increased power, then Bosch slams the door shut. Assh*les!
__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto 1983 300D - parts car 1979 300TD Auto - Parts car. 1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts. ========================= "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Your explanation of why the 265 nozzle can be crappier and still work well makes sense, though I don't think an injector can atomize fuel too well (literally). I would say the more atomization from the injector the better regardless of what the dispurser ball in the prechamber expects.
Which vehicles use the 193 nozzle? About the build quality, I would agree that the Indian 265 nozzles are crap. I ordered 6 of them the other day and the spray pattern was worse than from my German nozzles with over 150K miles on them and the worst thing was the huge variation in friction between the pintle and the nozzle. Some pintles were stuck inside so tight I had to slam the tips of the nozzles on the table to get them out. I returned this junk the next day. BUT, I was quite pleased with the quality of new 240/ nozzles, even the indian ones. They were clearly built to higher standards and most sprayed properly. Of the 9 that I tested, only 2 were less than satisfactory. I have only tested them new though, and I have no results as to how long they last. What kind of problems did you have with the indian nozzles, particularly with the 240/ ones?
__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual) Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
They "might" be making them better now that they've had howls of complaints too.
__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto 1983 300D - parts car 1979 300TD Auto - Parts car. 1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts. ========================= "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Hi!
193 and 273 nozzle Are used VW diesel. I use 161 on my 190D 2.2 |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
So gentlemen, which IDI nozzles would flow more fuel to the 617.951/952 engine? I don't care where they come from as far as which vehicle. I need a bigger orifice so I can send more fuel to my intercooled engine. I do want atomization and so if I can get a bigger nozzle I would also consider shimming the injectors for a higher pop pressure. I'd rather research this route first before turning up the pump...
Does anyone know where the bigger nozzles are? Jim '82 300SD |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Would also like to know the same for the 603 engine, as I need new injectors as well.
Where is one to go to make sure they can get quality injectors replaced/rebuilt that will last longer than a few thousand miles?
__________________
Mercedes Fleet: 2004 CL600 Designo Espresso SPORT 2004 S600 Designo Espresso SPORT/Lorinser Pkg. 1999 S320 1988 300TE 1972 280SEL 4.5 Diesel Fleet: 2014 GL350 Blutec 1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head 1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head 1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K 1984 Lincoln Mark VII Fact BMW Turbo Diesel |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88 '01 VW Beetle TDI '05 Jeep Liberty CRD '89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T '78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110 Oil Burner Kartel #35 http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Hi !
Please if some one can make contact to this guys. http://www.coloradobiodiesel.com/injectors/index.html Look to me are very good on Diesel Injectors. Once I send mail to them and get reply are very busy. There are talking : NA31 - NA33 and NA38 Nozzle. I dont have idea what mean and what kind Nozzle are. Regards |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If I can ever find a good consistent source of anything BUT India nozzles, I'll start advertising again (I don't advertise and don't even "plug" my product since I can't currently deliver anyway.) About once a month, I order ONE 240/ nozzle from a different distributor, hoping I'll find a lost-cache of German ones (and then buy all the nozzles they have) or I'll get some India ones that actually work. No luck so far, but am ever hopefull. I need to update the website, but one thing I still do is re-furb and set-balance them for customers. If you send yours in, I dis-assy, chem-strip, ultrasonically clean, re-furb the nozzles if they're not too far gone (most that have under 150K on them do well with this), re-assy and pop-test and balance them as a set to +/-2bar. If you have one or two bad nozzles, I have some used ones that are good nozzles that I can replace them with, but usually when one or two are so worn that they do not spray correctly, the rest are soon to follow.
__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto 1983 300D - parts car 1979 300TD Auto - Parts car. 1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts. ========================= "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
Hey Tom,
I (c m searls)am still waiting for the green light from you for the injectors for my 87 300SDL...all I need is them to get it back running. Just want to make sure they are balanced and made with quality nozzles. Once they are done I will send the injectors I have and the $$$.
__________________
Mercedes Fleet: 2004 CL600 Designo Espresso SPORT 2004 S600 Designo Espresso SPORT/Lorinser Pkg. 1999 S320 1988 300TE 1972 280SEL 4.5 Diesel Fleet: 2014 GL350 Blutec 1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head 1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head 1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K 1984 Lincoln Mark VII Fact BMW Turbo Diesel |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto 1983 300D - parts car 1979 300TD Auto - Parts car. 1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts. ========================= "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
I guess I will find out myself whether these new nozzles are durable or not. They have a 1 year warranty so before the warranty is over I'll pull my injectors and retest them. I'm hopeful that if they spray good initially they will continue spraying good. I mean they are made of hard metal and I don't see how normal usage with well lubricated fuel would cause a good spraying nozzle to go bad after only a few K miles unless they are exposed to some contamination.
You might be able to get some French nozzles. When I ordered the 240/ nozzles recently I think about a third of them were French. Of the two 240/ nozzles that I returned due to poor performance, one was French and the other was Indian. From my limited testing I couldn't tell a difference in quality between the Indian and French nozzles.
__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual) Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Tom !
Please tell me what mean NA38 Nozzl. What kind of Nozzl are. The Nozzl 193 or 293 used on VW Engines are good. Many years I talk with Mercedes Eng.tell me the 273 if I am not wrong are very good Nozzl and much better from 240. Regards |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto 1983 300D - parts car 1979 300TD Auto - Parts car. 1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts. ========================= "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol |
Bookmarks |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Anyone install the pin style glow plug kit in loop style engine? | kerry | Diesel Discussion | 4 | 01-25-2004 05:04 PM |
140 body style parts | ZFCZEPHIR | Featured Cars | 2 | 03-24-2003 09:30 AM |
New 95 Style Red/Black Mercedes Taillights 4 Sale!!! | FA22 | Mercedes-Benz Used Parts For Sale & Wanted | 0 | 02-20-2003 12:09 AM |
300SEL / 420SEL - what body style / engine? | yosshimura | Off-Topic Discussion | 2 | 08-02-2002 09:07 PM |
European style headlights for W123 | Ducati | Diesel Discussion | 8 | 12-20-2001 01:24 AM |