That's one of those variable that is indeterminate. The timing won't change unless the chain suffers wear and elongates. Some folks have 2.5° of elongation after 200K miles. So, in theory, you could check the IP timing, and adjust it, once every 200K. Clearly this is an extreme example, however, I'll bet that there are more than a few 617's out there that have never had the IP timing set.

The procedure is a bit onerous and most folks won't bother with it provided the engine is running acceptably well.

The SD was running 3° late since I owned it. Never knew the difference.

It's dead on spec now after setting it with the RIV lights.

Hrm, any noticable gains with timing the IP?

I highly doubt my 617 has ever had the timing set. Just the overall condition says that to me when I picked it up.

Can't comment as the timing was done at the same time the head was replaced........all new exhaust valves and prechambers.

Naturally, it runs much better than it has ever run since it was brand new. But, there is no way to quantify the variables.

Understandable. I'm trying to justify the purchase of that RIV tool for the two vehicles.

Difficult to justify $300.

But, how often do you really need to set timing?

One of them is for rent for $20 on the rental program. Seems like the way to go.

I think MB recommends checking the IP timing every 30k or 60k, or something like that. It's a pretty long interval. On OM60x engines, the chain should be replaced at 4 degrees stretch... the OM61x is a totally different animal, and the manuals insinuate that up to 10 degrees can be corrected with offset keys. (I've even read of some people installing new chains and measuring 2-4 degrees with a *new* chain... must be different tolerances on the older engines.)

About the effect on MPG, I saw a gain of about 1-2mpg by going from 15.0-15.5 down to 13.5 on my 603 engine, with no other changes. But, who knows, that could have been a fluke. On my other 603, I didn't see any measureable difference when I corrected the late (17 ATDC) timing and adjusted to 14.0... go figure. Same with the new chain.... had 4 degrees stretch, but saw basically no detectable difference with a new chain at 4 degrees (and IP set to 14.0). I am averaging 29mpg though over approx 10kmi per year... can't complain about that, especially with 225/45/17 tires mounted! YMMV, etc.

I do recommend sticking with the newer spec of 14.0 ADTC, btw. Seems to offer a little bit with no obvious drawbacks. I think the Crazy Finns also run timing in the 13-14 range on the SuperTurbos.

:cool:

Hell, I paid $35 for that 60X socket. :eek: So I don't have a problem if I can use it often. But every 200K isn't really worth it, one sold for $67 used on ebay! :eek:

Any idea what the deposit is on the tool?

I felt a VERY worthwhile increase in acceleration, just plain power, after the turbo gets up to speed ie above about 1500 RPM (engine speed) in my '83 300Dt following a new timing chain replacement. No key changes, just a new chain.
Only that BTW, no valve adjust or anything else, just installing a new timing chain and setting timing was >almost< like a new engine :rolleyes: well except it still uses a little oil, not bad for a car with 248K miles on it and the head has never been off the engine!
I did perform an ALDA adjustment (two shims worth) and swapped a diff from an '85 into the car several years ago and that makes it sit up and hum along really well at 75 - 80 MPH with little strain. A good running 617 engine is no slouch.

Seems to me that the amount that IP would be retarded compared to the cam, would be significantly smaller due to the fewer number of links between it and the crank...

Guess who bought the one on e-bay.........over in Great Britian...........;)

The deposit would be steep........probably $300..........have to do it because of the risk of damage by the renter.

Correct. We generally take a stab and say the IP is retarded about 1/2 as much as the camshaft..........but...........it could be slightly more due to the chain lengths.

I made that tool.
 

I took the splined keys off of the old injection pump (THAT I WOULD NEVER TRUST AGAIN to run on anything) that came off of my 603 motor that ran "wild" on me and sounded like an AIRPLANE taking off with a huge cloud of white smoke hanging in the air as if it were alive and had me not knowing whether to run for cover or try to shut it down (pretty scary moment that I won't forget anytime soon). Anyway, I just took two of those 6 splined rings that keep the injector caps secure and made sure they were aligned and would fit on the splined cap and welded them to a big spark plug socket. Then I filed off all of the excess material and made the tool look good and it has been working like a charm. The dealer wanted almost $300.00 for that tool when I first inquired about buying one when I was new to the 603 when one of my injector lines was leaking and I didn't know what to do about it, but did know that I just couldn't THROW money at the problem, not working on a Mercedes.

BenzDiesel

$300?!? They must have quoted you the wrong item. That sounds like a quote for the RIV 'A-B' light box, not the special socket. The socket should be under $30 at most dealers, or even via MercedesShop. I'd stick with the OE tool, not an aftermarket (i.e. SirTools). Some photos, including part number, is below.

:)

http://www.w124performance.com/image...alve_tool1.jpg
http://www.w124performance.com/image...alve_tool2.jpg
http://www.w124performance.com/image...alve_tool3.jpg

I thought someone was confusing the splined socket tool with the RIV tool but wanted to stay out of it for a moment as its POSSIBLE a dealer wanted $300 for a socket who knows!?
I've rented out my OE socket tool three times already and only a $20 deposit. Its still in service.
I would think that a deposit for the RIV tool however is another story and $300 is even too low. At least be sure you insure these thigs (either the socket or the RIV) as even Fed Ex can lose things (I can tell you horror stories about Fed Ex, DHL and UPS that I won't go into here) basically the integrity of us Shop Forum members is higher than some of the people that work for these shipping companies!

DDH

Yep, that would be me.:o

I thought you fellows were referring to the RIV tool..........and a $300. deposit is reasonable for that item.

The splined socket is quite a bit less.......obviously.

Almost $300.00 was the price quoted me for the splined tool, two years ago.
 

I didn't even know about that electronic tool. And was told that the splined tool had to be ordered and had to come from Germany and it would take about two weeks and had to be paid for in advance, while all the time my car was leaking diesel fuel profusely, and I didn't know what damage was being caused, but I knew it didn't look good. The Internet has made information much more accessible, since that time, which is why the prices have come down, I think; that along with Lexus getting all of the used to be Mercedes owners because of excessive break downs, but I still like Mercedes and see Lexus cars as "imitations" of Mercedes and often laugh when I see a Lexus that looks just like (almost) a Mercedes, except for the gold Lexus sign on the car. Don't they have design patents? Anyway, at the time, the price wasn't out of line in my way of thinking. I figured that if a diesel engine performed was well as the car was performing before the "cracked head" came about and I could expect to get about a million miles out of that car and all I needed was an almost $300.00 tool; then it was a bargain, which I almost bought, until I figured out that I could use the keys themselves and tap on them to get the injector caps off. But making the tool has been so much better. Plus, I'd bet that RIV tool at Mercedes cost over $1200.00 for a used one, TODAY. Also, this was way before I learned the hard way that you can't expect a million miles out of these cars, anymore, if ever.

Clarification: $300.00 was the price of the tool that I would have bought, but don't know if it was actually the splined tool or some other tool which Mercedes use to do this job, which made the price be almost $300.00. Nevertheless, I'm inclined to believe that it was just a splined tool, which at the time, nobody at the truck diesel shops had even heard of and told me that truck diesel engines didn't have no splines.

BenzDiesel

LOL - that's the one. :D

I bet that the dealer was indeed going to charge $300 for the tool pictured by gsxr in a previous post.
They sell the RIV (electronic timing indicator device) to employees for about $280. There are aftermarket ones for $250 or so.
I agree that the Internet has opened competition in all aspects of commerce and information exchange is exploding like never before, that's why they call this the Information Age ;)
re: Lexus. My dad drives one. bought it to replace Cadillacs after the Cad dealer was so hard on him over some factory warranty stuff. He drove the Lexus back over the next day and told him he was a man of his word and bought the Lexus like he said he would because of Cad reliability issues. I am certain there are lots of MB owners who have done similarly.
Bu who knows, if Lexus put out a car with a diesel engine I might have bought one (or two or five of them!) (just kidding? or not?)
my collection:
1971 220 (gas) 4-spd manual 106441*
1979 300TD w/ ’85 turbo engine 302,000
1983 300D 246650
1985 300TD 231008
1987 300D 264000
1987 300D $400 project car WIP

83 240d euro
 

Do you guys think the riv tool will work with my engine?1983 240d euro. I have the IP with spline socket delivery tube. Is this the newer style IP? What does the riv inlet plug on the IP look like and where would it be located. I see one on the side opposite the engine and to the rear. It looks like a alllen wrench will fit. is this it? I may take photos later to show. there is another right next to the no.1 delivery tube on the engine side. that looks like a fuel inlet but nothing goes there and there is no plug. Any good diagrams of these IP's?
thanks for the help.
Chris

This might be the plug. Take a photo and post it.

Yes, that's it.
 

My question is: What does the RIV measure that makes the light come on? Does it just let you know that you have hit the "vee"? I already know that Mercedes diesels will just about run on any number as long as fuel will pump to the injectors. The problem must be in the translation from German to English that is causing the problem. The German guy that knows how the thing works, must can't speak English well enough to explain the intricates that make the pump work, so when he try to tell the translator (American in this case), who probably has no idea what an injection pump or maybe even a glow plug is, since his skill is translating and not mechanics and has a hard time trying to interpret what the German speaking guy is saying, in terms of the "fine" intricates and details of how to explain the procedures in a coherent manner, since the interpreter might not even know how to open the hood on a Mercedes.

BenzDiesel

Like here?
(sorry I am too 603-centric at the moment (I wonder why)

Like there.;)

Can I assume my SD's IP has this fitting as it's a late 617?

.....you can.

Excellent, I'll have to rent that tool from the board and time both. :)

So the RIV tool will work as long as you have that plug as in the line drawing...and not just that far fancier looking piece that shows up in the FSM manual http://ken.kdharris.net/kdhbenz/07-1-111.pdf ?

If it has the plug in the line drawing, the RIV tool should work. It will work on all 603 engines and the later 617 engines.

There is a photo in the FSM in section 7.1.8 showing the addition of the flange and closing plug to the housing of the MW pump. It does look a bit fancier than the line drawing.

I can't explain the difference.

I know the difference its very visible when you compare the line drawings with the FSM, no explaination needed...mine all have the simple allen sceaw there...the US market pumps do not have that part that protrudes as shown on that FSM. Having not seen an 84 or 85 pump or the Euro pump wasn't sure if it was an 84 and 85 issue or not.


The line drawing still represents the US pump quiet accurately.

Where to buy
 

I took the Riv unit to my local indy to see how he liked it . He liked it, and decided he needs one so I told him I would get the link for the tool. Anyone know where i can get one.I know Its been posted, I just cant find it for some reason.thanks

My friend ordered one from the local MB Dealership. It has a MB part number. He is a mechanic employed there and he received a discount, I don't know how much but probably significant.
I searched google and found this item which looks similar to the MB tool:
http://www.thepartsbin.com/cartools/speciality_tools-diesel_timing_tool_dynamic-d.html

I think the price has gone up since then, but anyway, here you go:
http://www.w124performance.com/image...__RIV_tool.jpg

Simple answer... SEARCH !
 

I did a Google search on your p/n " 617 589 08 21 00 " and came up with several hits... including: http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm where the tool sells for ~$380

Sam

Samstags' prices for some things are outrageous, and this is one of those instances. Current dealer cost for "617 589 08 21 00" is $206 (as of June 2009), and most dealerships mark up tools about 30-60% over cost. So, I'd expect most dealers would charge you $268-$330 USD for the tool. Samstag is probably paying 20-30% over cost, and then tacking on $100+ profit for themselves. I'm sure you can find places to buy it under $300. Shoot me an email if you can't.

:balloon2:

gsxr... good inside dealer price information on this item...
 

SideBar to this Subject - As you know, this "RIV" light system is static. As I have reported on another THREAD, I've been trying to make a pulse sensor accessory and timing light work together to give reliable "dynamic" timing checks for these vintage diesels. I think I'm closing in on a workable answer but NO "cuppie doll" yet!
SAm

The RV timing tool is a whooping $497 + shipping from Baum tools :eek:

New Direct from MB in the UK £197,

Baum can be a ripoff on certain items, and apparently this is one of them. See my previous post (scroll up a bit)... you should be able to locate the factory tool for about $300 USD with a little hunting around.

:hat:

Does the RIV tool come with all of these other bits in the diagram?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...pumptiming.jpg

Nope. What you get for ~$300 is shown in the photo above, in post #83, aka the "A-B light box". This is what you need to set static pump timing when installing the pump or or adjusting the timing.

What's pictured in the WIS screen shot is the dynamic RIV tools, which allow measuring pump timing with the engine running. While this is cool, it's also not necessary for 99.44% of the work you'd ever do on the engine. And it will cost about 10x as much. I don't know anyone who has one of these.


:batman:

Thanks bud,

Do you think both tools are as accurate as each other in their results although I appreciate one is a lot more difficult to use?

The reason is on my OM605 its easy to line up the notch as you you can feel it with your small finger then (I guess) just pop the tool, in followed by a bit of wiggling?

So you have the damper marker set at 14/15 degrees ATDC, loosen bolts and move pump around until it 'clicks' in, is this not going to be as accurate as both lights coming on to say its in the middle?

The tools should all be equally accurate, the difference is the usage:

1) Lock tool - most time consuming, and there is risk involved if you forget to remove the tool before rotating the pump or the engine

2) Static position sensor (A-B light box) - Fastest & easiest to use, zero risk, also helps identify location of IP timing tab if pump happens to be one tooth or more out of sync (this is somewhat rare, but believe me, if it does happen - you don't want to use the lock tool to locate the tang! A second person would be required if you don't have the A-B box, if you do have the box, it's a 1-person job. BT, DT.)

3) Dynamic RIV tool - allows viewing live timing with the engine running. Only needed if the timing device is suspected to not be working properly.


:zorro:

I just looked and found I have the TDC sensor 603.589.00.21.00 "for measuring rpm and start of delivery 601, 602.91 /93 /94 /96 /97, 604.91, 605.91, 606.91 /96" ie. items 016 and 021 in the diagram.
If anyone is interested in borrowing or possible purchase - well, PM me. I don't have anything else, sorry

Nope. What everyone around here calls the RIV tester really isn't. The RIV tester sets the timing with the engine running. The actual method we use is the "Position Method". Here are the PDF's courtesy of GSXR's website :cool:

http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8244.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8240.pdf

Many thanks for that gsxr, much appreciated!

That is just for the TDC sensor... about $400 or so. Click here for a bit more info on the TDC sensor. You still need the RIV sensor that screws into the pump, 617-589-09-21-00, which is a mere $1000. Click here for more info. Of course, the expensive item is the Bosch digital tester ($$$$), the box you plug these sensors into.

Trust me - nobody is gonna have this stuff... and unless it shows up on eBay for pennies on the dollar, nobody ever will, lol!


:stuart:

THese use to be much more reasonable...

I *KNOW* someone whom owns one and repair ppl would drive 20-30 miles to use it. Very nice and easy. I think he paid $275 in about 98' for it.

M

Do you mean the "A-B light box"? Yep, it works great. You can still get one for ~$300 or so.


:ninja:

FYI
 

A-B light box
MB# 617 589 08 21 00



.

Digging up an old but excellent thread. I have a few questions on 3) Dynamic RIV tool .

Does anyone on the forum have the following digital testers or have used them in the past?

http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8244.pdf

Adapter 617 589 09 21 00

Digital testers:
Bosch ETD 019.002
Sun DIT 9100
AVL 873

Bosch MOT 001.03

I am trying to figure out whether it uses a timing light or not or does it just output a digital reading on the test set? There is an inductive clamp interface between the adapter and the digital tester which leads me to think it has a timing light but then there is a setup where the adapter is not used so I'm not sure.

I've been working on a Xenon timing light triggered by the RIV port to mimic the factory digital RIV testers and want to understand it's theory of operation as much as possible.

I believe it uses a sensor at the crankshaft to measure engine position, relative to the IP/RIV position. No timing light.

:scooter: