Specialized Indicator for IP Timing - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dannym · #31 01-25-2006, 12:18 PM

Aren't there different timing specs for new vs. old chains?

Danny

dieseldiehard · #32 01-25-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I think he is talking about the one he rebuilt.

Did you get the injectors tested?? Since it is a fresh engine I would think the noise would be fuel related. The lifters shouldn't make any noise.

As stated, a brand new set ot Bosch rebuilt injectors (not Made in India) gave the same noisy response as a set I borrowed off a SDL engine that I have access to the same engine that now is basically dead because the PO didn't feel like spending $450 to install a new vacuum pump

I have a hunch it might be fuel related and wonder if the IP might somehow be involved?
I added a good dose of Cetane booster to the tank, and added fresh fuel but admit it had some old fuel in it, may be a quarter tank. THe strainer was clean when I pumped the fuel out temporarily to replace the fuel hose at the tank.
I sure hope it isn't simply bad fuel after all the trouble, time and energy I've put into this rebuild. I have a good friend who is experienced witht he 603, having rebuilt several of them and plan on driving the car for a while (after I install a new alternator) and see what he thinks after listening to it.
If I had a recorder and a sound card in my computer I could provide a wav file or something, alas I don't have either. Trust me, its not a nice sound! if you ever heard a good running 603 engine they should purr.

dieseldiehard · #33 01-25-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannym

Aren't there different timing specs for new vs. old chains?

Danny

Brian said this on that subject:
Timing chain stretch

Simply replacing a worn chain can make acceleration improve dramatically! Best thing I ever did for my '83 300D at 226K miles (besides installing an '85 differential in it!)

dannym · #34 01-25-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseldiehard

Brian said this on that subject:
Timing chain stretch

Simply replacing a worn chain can make acceleration improve dramatically! Best thing I ever did for my '83 300D at 226K miles (besides installing an '85 differential in it!)

You missed my point. Brian touched on it in that thread you linked to:

Quote:

To accurately check the timing chain stretch requires a dial indicator to be setup on the #1 intake valve, after the valve lash is removed. The engine is rotated until the valve lifts .080". Then the reading is taken from the degree wheel on the crankshaft damper and compared to a known spec. IIRC it's 11 degrees on an existing (worn) chain. Almost all chains that have been in service for awhile won't meet this spec. The question is how much the chain exceeds this value. The manual calls for using an offset key to adjust the valves back to spec, however, there is some disagreement as to whether replacement of the chain is a wise idea if the stretch exceeds a certain amount.

According to the online FSM it's 9 deg for a new chain 11 deg for an old chain.
Like I said different specs for new vs. old chains.

Danny

dieseldiehard · #35 01-25-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannym

You missed my point. Brian touched on it in that thread you linked to:

According to the online FSM it's 9 deg for a new chain 11 deg for an old chain.
Like I said different specs for new vs. old chains.

Danny

Sorry I guess I did miss the point, I don't know the spec

Brian Carlton · #36 01-25-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannym

According to the online FSM it's 9 deg for a new chain 11 deg for an old chain.
Like I said different specs for new vs. old chains.

Danny

Yes, the hard copy also confirms this. A brand new chain should be at 9° when that 2mm valve lift procedure is utilized. This is for the "05" camshaft.

gsxr · #37 02-27-2006, 02:56 PM

Samstag's price ain't all that great. The cost has gone up, but you should be able to get it from Rusty or elsewhere for under $300:

gsxr · #38 02-27-2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

Save your money.

I bought one of those and never could get it to find the "nub" in the IP. I believe that the slot on that tool is very narrow and the spring tension will barely allow the tool to pickup on the slot. So, it's a two man job. One man to rotate the crank........ever so slowly.......which is very difficult.......and one man to carefully watch this tool for movement. You can easily go right past the notch. I presume that's what happened to me. Never felt anything while I carefully rotated the engine from down below.

Then, once you engage the notch, you read the crank damper. If it's not correct, you must remove the tool, move the IP, blindly, and repeat the process all over again until you get it right. It would take forever. The RIV tool is $300.00 but it's worth every penny of it.

The aftermarket (Sir Tools) unit has a poor record... several people have had trouble getting it to locate the tab inside the pump. Buy the genuine Mercedes tool from Rusty or your local dealer. Note that you need to rotate the plunger while turning the crank, it's NOT self-locating. Remember this tool is only intended to be used when installing a pump, not to set the timing once on the car (but many people do this). I have the RIV (A-B light box) tool and I agree, it's worth every penny if you have more than one MB diesel to work on!

Hit Man X · #39 03-14-2006, 03:45 AM

Don't mean to bring up an old thread but this one has many problems within that I need to go over.

The chain stretch on my SD is around 2.5-3° at the balancer, so if I tossed in a 4° Woodruff key I'd be around 1° advanced I figure. Would it be smart to time the IP to the 1° advance or to the standard 15° per MB spec for the 617?

Also, my SDL is about 2.5-3° at the balancer too. Again, should it be done to MB spec despite the stretch or do the light math to get it timed to the stretch?

Sorry, it's late and when my mind begins to work.

gsxr · #40 03-14-2006, 11:41 AM

Yeah, there has been discussion on this in the past, with no concrete answer. My opinion is to set the timing to the crankshaft and forget the camshaft. As the chain stretches, the pump timing will become retarded as measured by the crank. I prefer a setting around 14.0, and that's the spec for later (1990+) engines anyway. Maybe 13.5 so as the chain stretches a bit, it settles at 14.0.

When using offset keys, do NOT adjust timing for the stretch... install the key to get the cam near zero, and set the IP to 14.0-15.0 against the crank alone.

dannym · #41 03-14-2006, 01:43 PM

What method did you use to determine your chain stretch?

If you decide to add a woodruff key I would check the timing before trying to adjust it. Adding the key should bring the IP back into time also.

Danny

gsxr · #42 03-14-2006, 02:27 PM

Standard procedure to check chain stretch is to rotate crank until the cam tower marks line up, then read the TDC pointer on the balancer... usually will be something past 0° TDC. That's the amount of stretch/elongation.

Installing a new chain will, in most cases, return retarded IP timing to normal. Just installing an offset key will not... that will correct cam vs. crank timing, but the chain is still stretched and still leaves the pump timing retarded relative to the crank (and now-corrected cam).

dannym · #43 03-14-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Standard procedure to check chain stretch is to rotate crank until the cam tower marks line up, then read the TDC pointer on the balancer... usually will be something past 0° TDC. That's the amount of stretch/elongation.

That's not standard procedure. Standard procedure is using the 2mm valve lift method.
You can use the cam marks but they have to be perfectly aligned.

With the 2mm lift method you check the number on the balancer and compare that to specifications provided by Mercedes in the FSM.

If you use the cam marks 2 degrees ATDC is normal. Anything after that is chain stretch. You would NOT want to use this method to pick a woodruff key.

It's all explained here:
http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM617TimingChainStretch

As for the IP, unless your using an A-B light it's a PITA to get it right. I would always check before adjusting.

For your reading enjoyment:
Q on timing chain stretch...

Danny

gsxr · #44 03-14-2006, 04:19 PM

Maybe the OM617's are harder to get via the cam tower marks, but on the OM60x series it's a factory-approved procedure - here's the PDF:

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/OM60X/OM60x_Timing_Chain_TSB.pdf

I did the 2mm lift check with a dial indicator a few times, then repeated the check via the eyeball method on the cam tower marks, and got the same result (with 0.5°) every time. I'd do the eyeball method about 3-5 times and average the results.

I totally agree on the IP timing... the A-B light is by far the best way! The lock tool is not a factory approved procedure, but it will work (it just takes a LOT longer and has some risk involved, if you forget to pull the lock and try to turn the engine!)

Brian Carlton · #45 03-14-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

When using offset keys, do NOT adjust timing for the stretch... install the key to get the cam near zero, and set the IP to 14.0-15.0 against the crank alone.

OK Dave, I'll bite on this one.

The Woodruff key will return the camshaft to proper timing. But, the IP will still be late.

Why would you not adjust the IP timing to compensate for the chain stretch and thereby match the camshaft?