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  #16  
Old 05-03-2006, 11:15 AM
pawoSD's Avatar
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I also want to see a 2.7 sprinter engine put into a W123 (or W126) that'd be really interesting!

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  #17  
Old 05-03-2006, 11:20 AM
d.delano's Avatar
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Not only would I like to see it, I'd like some other person on the forum, some ace like BC or PB or DieselGiant, to do it and take real good photos and do a real good writeup on it, so maybe I could do it myself someday. I must confess I'm getting bored of the power curve of the OM617 turbo.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2006, 11:34 AM
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Location: Southtowns of Buffalo, NY
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Don't Give Up!!!!!

I though I was going to have the same problem – First when we installed the Ford power plant – and then again when we added the super charger….both times my equipment fit under the hood…but I did locate an early to mid 80’s Honda that had a hood bulge that had the same design and date styling to match up to the w123 – they were close, and the lines were close to the hood lines on the w123 so that they would be almost parallel – and with a little bondo and some refined radius’ it would look the part – I was trying to rip off the last gen M3….

Also as for the adaptor….it is not that hard – I can dig around for some reference – in the Ford world – people install SHO engines into other cars – and make them power the rear wheels….so an adaptor plate and such has to be made…most of the time what I see is an aluminum plate much like your wood plate then welded or bolted to a stock bell housing…so in your case

TDI Engine-Home made adaptor-M-B Transmission….

Are you going to have to make your own drive shaft to compensate for the length difference with the new drive train???

Do you have the pedal and all that jazz???

Good Luck – FINISH!!!
Jake

http://rogueperformance.com/t5install.html
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VW TDI engine into W123 wagon update-fordcedes1.jpg  
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2006, 12:10 PM
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Ted,

I was glad to see U "threw in the towel" on the VW engine into an MB project.

I was ready to turn U into the MB Gestapo and they would surely send U to the Auschwitz gas chamber.

P E H
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2006, 12:58 PM
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You could put another 617 in with the 5 speed. I would think you would get some milage gain over the standard automatic.
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  #21  
Old 05-03-2006, 01:43 PM
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Wow, thats a great idea and effort on your part! The way I see it is you have two solutions:
1. Do the Audi oil pan, relocate the heat exchanger and do custom engine mounts to get the engine lower and the hood to fit. Hoodscoop will ruin the look of the MB. Regarding the transmission adaptor there is a company that puts VW diesels in Suzuki Samurai's. Their adaptor is "half done", you just have to find a welder/machinist to get the MB tranny bolt pattern on it. IMHO, using a Borg-Warner T5 5speed tranny would be a better idea. They shift very nicely and I would guess are physically smaller than the MB manual..... I think the TDI would do just fine longevity wise and MPG's. Consider that a VW TDI with four adults in it will weigh pretty close to your wagon with just one person. The loaded TDI will still knock out mid 40's on the highway. Even if you only got high 30's out of it that would be a huge improvement. Granted, this is the hard way......

2. Get yourself a nice used 617 turbo and drop that baby in! Either with the manual or without, it'll be a nice ride! Should be easy to do, you are halfway there. Or you could just sell the body to me....

RT
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2006, 05:15 PM
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Thanks for all of your replies and encouragement. It has really become quite a dilemna for me. I really like driving these W123s. There's nothing bad about getting 50 mpg in the Golf TDI, but the car just isn't a Mercedes. For example, in the winter the doors freeze shut sometimes. Seems like "winter testing" meant taking the thing up to Sweeden in a trailer, driving around for a few hours and calling it a day. Don't get me wrong, I think it's the leader of its class and will probably last longer than a W123 (fully galvanized body, very robust engine, etc) but it's just not the same as the spring seats and big steering wheel.

I love the hood scoop idea in principle and I don't mind a subtle bump in the hood. But I'm worried about not putting the crank in the same axis as Stuttgart intended. I only know enough about driveline engineering to be dangerous, but I understand that the angle of the engine-as-installed is critical. Messing with that can make huge vibration problems.

I did consider a T5 transmission for a while since they're so much easier to find than the 717.400. In the end I figured that the side-shifting Mercedes linkage is a big part of keeping the cabin quiet, and I couldn't find any side-shifted T5s.

As for the power of the TDI engine, I think it has plenty. Remember that stock Golf/Jetta/New Beetle TDIs make 90 hp at the wheels -- about what 300D turbo automatic does. Then the TDI is easily tuned to about 115 hp and 175 lb-ft, without smoke. I think launch might be a little tricky with only 1.9L and a 3.07 rear, but that's it. I have a big spreadsheet that shows this stuff graphically. PM me and I'll send it to you.

Mating the engine and transmission would be expensive simply because the stock is expensive. Two inches of aluminum, 18" x 18", runs about $500! The bolt pattern for the TDI is available at http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/tdi_engine_cad_drawing_small.pdf and I figured I could set the removable Mercedes engine plate up on a Bridgeport to get its precise dimensions. It has a big circle machined on the inside for the older style transmissions, so finding the crank center would be tedious, but doable.

As it turns out, the clutch disc for the 280TE that came with my 5-speed is the same 228 mm diameter as that for the TDI. I think the input shaft is also 1 1/8 by 12 or whatever, so there should be plenty of 228mm/9 inch clutch discs in American auto parts houses. Or have a custom one made. (TDI uses a 30-some-spline input shaft.)

I do have the electronic pedal, but not the ECU. I'd need one for the 98 New Beetle since that car didn't have an immobilizer.

Yes, a much longer driveshaft would be required, as well as much longer shifter rods. The rear transmission mount would actually sit a little forward of that for the 240D manual, which might present a problem.

Then there's the question of power steering and the self-leveling suspension. I have a "tandem pump" from a W124 and can see how one could modify the TDI accessory bracket and make an adaptor to run it off the serpentine belt. But I'm concerned that the higher steering pressure (110 bar versus the W123's 65 bar) would make the steering effort way to low.

Then there's the intercooler issue. The TDI engine is intercooled, but it's difficult to mount one on a W123. I planned to run it un-intercooled and work on that later.

As you can see, there's a lot of legwork left on this project. I've made a lot less progress than I hoped, and since I have to move at the end of June, I'm afraid it just won't work.

If anyone seriously wants to take this project on, let me know and maybe we can work something out. It would be great to see it come together.

Ted
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2006, 05:24 PM
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For kicks I also tried to get a sense of what a 300TD turbo do for mpg with a 5-speed manual transmission. All but the last line (my estimates) are taken from the 1983 tech data manual and are converted to US mpg for DIN city / steady 90 kmh / steady 120 kmh:

300TD (non-turbo, 3.46 rear)
4sp 24.3 / 30.2 / 22.6
5sp 24.3 / 33.6 / 24.8
auto 24.0 / 29.0 / 21.4

300TD (turbo, 3.07 rear)
auto 22.6 / 29.4 / 21.6
5sp (est) 23 / 34 / 25
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2006, 07:18 PM
LarryBible
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Yes, the TDI is more powerful, yadda, yadda, but taking away weight has the same effect as adding torque/HP. Don't expect that neck snapping reaction from mashing the gas pedal that you experience in a Jetta that is almost 1,000 pounds lighter.

Also, find an economy supplier for timing belts.

Good luck,
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2006, 07:31 PM
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I agree the timing belts are a pain but the change interval is now 100,000 miles. With the engine north-south there'd be no need to unbolt the stupid engine mount like you have to in the Golf/Jetta. So it would be quite a bit easier. I figure what you lose in timing belts you gain in not having to adjust valves every 15,000.

As for the weight, you might be surprised at how porky the Golf and Jetta are. The outgoing Jetta weighs an even 3,000 and the new model weighs 3,200! I figure that a 123.193 300TD, starting at 3,780 less its big 617 and automatic transmission, plus TDI and manual transmission, would be under 3,500?
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  #26  
Old 05-03-2006, 07:31 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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yeah, you dont want to have a lot of angle in the driveshaft. if you cant get it to sit down in there i would sell off the vw engine and put a benz back in. you can prob get a nice benz deisel for what you can sell a good vw engine.

if you put in a 300na with that fiver i bet you can get over 30. and unless you are driving exclusively on the highway i would go with a 346 rear end.

hell a turbo 617 with the fiver might top 30 too. with the 288 rear end.

tom w
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  #27  
Old 05-03-2006, 08:53 PM
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Driveshaft is the least of any problems. I would not be concerned there. Lots of places make custom drive shafts for 4x4's. And for steep angles very common on trucks you can get cv joints instead of Ujoints.

I have driven large 7 pax vans in Europe with a 1.9 TDI in it. No problems what so ever pulling it around.

Hood bumps are easy to make.
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2006, 09:15 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted_Grozier
Then there's the intercooler issue. The TDI engine is intercooled, but it's difficult to mount one on a W123. I planned to run it un-intercooled and work on that later.
Be careful with this. The exhaust temps might get a bit too high without an intercooler.

I'd hate for you to finish the project and then melt the engine a week later.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2006, 09:31 PM
Jim B.'s Avatar
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Ted

Love that yankee ingenuity!!

Sorry you had to stop there. Kind of like almost winning the egg and spoon race to drop the egg 1 inch before the finish line.

Guy like you could probably stick a good MB used diesel back in and use it as a hedge against gas prices! I hate to see a 123 go to the breakers yard

They really are super cars!!
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2006, 05:55 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownbear
Driveshaft is the least of any problems. I would not be concerned there. Lots of places make custom drive shafts for 4x4's. And for steep angles very common on trucks you can get cv joints instead of Ujoints.

I have driven large 7 pax vans in Europe with a 1.9 TDI in it. No problems what so ever pulling it around.

Hood bumps are easy to make.
i would be surprised if you can get a cv joint for this application, and i still think this approach is not very good. you want the engine to sit down in the car the right way for center of gravity and handling reasons. those four by four trucks all sitting up in the air are strictly for off road and show. they would be an abortion to drive every day on the street.

now if you could get the crank lined up correctly and all you needed was a little more hoodroom i say the scoop thing is fine. i even have a hood i would contribute to the cause just so i could see the results.


tom w

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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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