Am I supposed to use one on every bolt?

I have a friend that brought this to my attention when I was talking to him about the 240D falling apart at the seams lately-- for everyone to say these cars last twice that mileage, the car surely does need every single part replaced on it.

It is either me not knowing how to fix things(half of it I haven't touched, but is falling apart anyway) or that the car has mileage higher than indicated by the salesman at the lot I bought it from or maybe 30 years is just the average life expectancy of a w123-- I can't be sure.

I just know the car is turning into a heap of good looking trash very quickly-- and I'm not even using it but to get cigarettes 1/2 mile away every few days to keep things from freezing up.

What a long post about nothing, eh?

So am I supposed to torque every bolt to specification?

__________________
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1...Untitled-1.jpg

Mildly curious I am as to the year and indicated mileage of the car. Mine is an 81 with 383000 miles. It has had a hard life and certainly does require things to be replaced as they wear out but I'd be surprised to find it falling apart. Of course where MB specifies torque settings on bolts it's probably highly advisable to adhere to them. One part I can attest to the wisdom of doing so from personal experience would be the power steeing box mounting bolts.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Adhering to the manufacturers recommended torque values is important for a couple of reasons.....if some part is not tightened to spec it could come loose.....or if a part is over tightened you can strip threads, break bolts, and distort the parts involved......also over tightening can damage gaskets, and distort seal rings and "O" rings.....

I am familiar with the Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Pell City area.....do you live in a rural area there??

I do my best NOT to drive my car on dirt/gravel roads....and take the bumpy paved roads gently.....you don't state what is falling apart, knowing that would help in diagnosing your problem from a distance.....another question, are your wheels balanced?? Do you experience any excessive vibrations when at speed??

SB

__________________

Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

When you say that adhering to the exact torque specifications is necessary, does this apply to regular maintenance items that I do often, like changing my oil? If so, I wasted a whole lot of money on wrenches, when I should just be using a single torque wrench to screw in every bolt.

__________________
"There are a lot of pebbles on the beach, but there's a Little Rock in Arkansas."

Logan

1983 300D Turbodiesel
1976 300D Rustdiesel

I do....because the last thing that I want is a stripped oil drain bolt hole.....and it is the best way to prevent leaks, proper seal ring, proper torque!!

After spending a career performing maintenance and repairs, one does get a feel for sufficient torque.....

And....if you adhere to the MB torque specs you will probably need 3 torque wrenches to be able to cover all torque values mentioned in the MB manuals....a 1/4" , 3/8", and 1/2" drives......there may be a very few instances where a 3/4" drive would be needed but I have not found those as yet.......

SB

__________________

Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

No, you didn't waste your money. The wrenches are used to hold the bolt while you torque tne nut on the opposite end.

But a well-equipped tool box needs at least two torque wrenches, maybe three or four. And make sure the wrenches are calibrated in Newton/Meters. Under no circumstances should you use a ft/lbs wrench on a Mercedes!!!

Agreed.....but you can convert, just will have to get as close as you can with the in/lb or ft/lb scale.....

A metric torque wrench isn't all that easy to find....at least not here in WV....if you have a few extra dollars....and like really neat stuff.....visit a Snap-On truck and check out the new digital torque wrenches.....cost over $300....but you can select whatever measuring system that you want, digitally on the LCD screen......

SB

__________________

Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

Yes and no. Yes you are. I on use the torque wrench on any kind of sealing or gasket. Other than that I've just gotten a feel for what the torque ranges are. One thing people don't mention is that a lubed bolt head will make for 40% or so more torque. And since most people use PB blaster or WD40 on stuff they are probably over torquing.

__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42

Generally, German equipment manufacturers specify use of an anti seize compound.....again, generally Molybdenum Disulfide Paste (Moly Kote), to assure that uniform torque values are achieved. I have seen this mentioned in the MB service manuals....will note it when I am looking up something, next!!

I am sure that you did not specifically mean the bolt head.....the threads are what needs the anti seize.....

I, usually, run a re-thread tap into the bolt hole or nut and a hex die over the bolt threads.....this is to clean them of any debris.....a good wire brushing of the bolt threads will do.....and then running the nut onto the bolt with a bit of anti sieze to assure a clean, trouble free fit.....do this before any reassembly of parts.....

SB

Forgot to mention, blow out any blind bolt or stud holes with compressed air, and also wire brush the area where the nut, or bolt head seat against the part......and make sure that the proper bolt goes into the bolt hole, a longer bolt may possibly bottom out without exerting it's intended force on the part (also if there is trash in the bolt hole)....and a bolt that is too short for the intended use may eventually come loose, or distort and/or strip the threads.....

__________________

Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

It's a 1979 240D Automatic with 154,592.3 miles.

It needs:

Full Brake Rebuild: the booster doesn't work and the rotors are genuine MB, assuming they're original-- the neon's are at the same mileage.

Full Front-End rebuild: Wanders, bobbles and has 2 inches of play in the wheel. knew this when I bought it, but the tire tread did it in.

Transmission: There is a distinct thump when it shifts out of first when cold-- Almost as if it is shifting twice into second(it isn't shifting to third)

Rear Springs are shot.

Alternator is on it's way out.

The car still feels very solid, and there's no doubt that if I put the parts on, that it'd last another 50k easily-- but it's still going to be a common car with 200k on it. There were what-- over 5 1/2 million w123s produced? I'm not sure it's worth saving.

__________________
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1...Untitled-1.jpg

Sounds like it's time for a good parts car........and if you only have 155K miles on it.....it's just getting broken in......if your body is as solid as you think it is....you should get an easy 100K miles......if you address the needed repairs....

If you aren't a great mechanic, and car person......see if you can meet someone from here who is knowledgeable in the rust issues of these cars.....the rest can be fixed relatively easily......

How do you know that you have a break booster issue??

I dunno about the shifting to 3rd.....but it may be possible that the brake booster and transmission issues are both vacuum related.....

As far as the car wandering....and the 2" of play in the steering wheel....could be a number of things.....

and why do you think the rear springs are shot?? could be just shocks...

and why do you think that the alternator is on it's way out??

SB

__________________

Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

Reply: The car really isn't terrible, but I'm wary of spending the $1-$1.5k needed on a car that won't be worth much more after that money is spent. An early 240D automatic with a cracked blue dash and thin original classic white paint isn't worth much! The car is what would be called in the VW world a 'survivor' it had absolutely no parts replaced before my tenure as owner-- that is what drew me to the car! The brake pads were original MB-- the prefilter even had a star on it!!! It never occured to me that the wear parts would all go at once, and that is what has happened.


Q: How do you know that you have a break booster issue??

A: Nothing is hooked up but the brakes and fuel shut-off.

It may be possible that the brake booster and transmission issues are both vacuum related.....

Reply: To my knowledge, there is no vacuum applied to early 240D Automatic transmissions.

As far as the car wandering....and the 2" of play in the steering wheel....could be a number of things.....

Reply: It's the shocks, steering damper and other multitude of parts that have been sitting under a cast iron engine for 30 years. Everyone says these cars need front-end work right around 150k, mine ought not be too different, eh?

Q: Why do you think the rear springs are shot??

A: Because I replaced the shocks with new Bilsteins 9 months/5,000 miles ago.

Q: Why do you think that the alternator is on it's way out??

A: The alternator case has an ovular lower bolt hole because I used too small a replacement when my Father forgot to tighten the factory bolt whenever the battery was on it's way out and we removed the alternator to have it tested. It needs to be replaced.

I've been meaning to make this post, but I just didn't know how well a "I thought you guys said these are good cars, but mine seems to be falling apart" thread would go over!

Thank you all very much!

__________________
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1...Untitled-1.jpg

I didn't manage to follow this response so I can't offer much insight into the problem. There are a bunch of items between the brake booster and the rotors. Any or a combination of things with all of them could be influencing your brake performance. But, once again, I am not sure what the issue actually is yet.

You got me there. I try to stick to manual transmissions, especially with 240Ds. They are very well matched to the manual transmission MB offers, especially the Euros that have the 5-speed. They are, in general, very ill matched to any automatic MB ever offered with them.

You may have something here. Ball joints and other alignment joints that rely on rubber donuts and sleeves are likely at an age where they no longer provide really good support. But, before I just threw in the towel, I would check the cheap things that directly affect play, like the tie rods and steering arm/idler arm joints. You might also consider that if the power steering fluid has never been changed, that event is due, along with an adjustment of play in the steering box.

Once again, what was the symptom? Rear springs may be a problem, if the car was constantly used transport stuff that was too heavy for the suspension and now it squats too low. There are rear wheel alignment specifications that should be checked too.

iNeon, I believe you meant the bolt hole was ovalized. If it is truly ovular, does that mean the alternator could be about to ovulate? While you are addressing this issue, I believe that lower bolt runs in a sleeve between alternator housing (front and rear) ears. Without the sleeve you will have a similar problem again, or, you might break one of the ears off. If the thing makes electricity as it should, I would be inclined to drill the oval hole out, make it round and use a larger bolt. I believe there is just a nut on the other side, and if the other, top fastener is tight, the unit should be ok to make electricity for you for quite a while.

We all experience problems with these old machines. Once you fix a few of them, and the car starts to respond to the TLC, it develops an intrinsic value having nothing to do with resale value. I would go anywhere with a 240D, at least one with a manual transmission, as I know with oil and fuel, and a few simple maintenance parts/tools, it is just not going to strand me. My daughter took our old 1982 240D from CT to San Diego, California after college graduation with three other young ladies and all their junk, with about 290,000 miles on the clock, and drove it back at the end of the summer, returning it to me with about 302,000. No problems at all, other than the thirst for oil to replace the leakage past the rear seal, a known problem when she left.

My oldest son then took the car to college and drove it without oil and ruined the engine. At that point, with about 321,000 miles, it was put down.

Neglect can make these things cost more to get into shape. But, once in shape if you like working on the car they are very reliable and affordable. Paying others to fix them will drive you to conclude they are no bargain. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

on critical things like inside the engine and suspension and brake parts I use a torque wrench. on other things that have a spec like 25Nm I go by feel. Then there's places like manifolds where it's difficult to use a torque wrench.

Sixto
93 300SD 3.0

This may open up a can of worms, but, generally if there is a specified torque and you have a torque wrench, go ahead and use it. But be aware of how the engine was or is intended to be assembled.

Someone already mentioned that lubricating the threads and the bearing surface under the bolt head can make a big difference in the closing force the bolt applies to the mechanical joint members (usually metal part, gasket, metal part for sealing applications and just metal parts in brakes/mechanical assemblies that transmit torque). So, you have to know whether or not the assembly is intended to be lubricated or not. In general there are relatively few unlubricated assemblies. Typically those involving the use of a thread sealant/locking compound (LocTite or the like) are not lubricated, and the wheel lug nuts/bolts are not lubricated. I presume all others are intended to be lubricated.

So, if you have a torque wrench, use it. If you don't, well, either get one or just live with what happens.

By the way, what kind of stuff seems to be falling apart? I have not seen a reasonably well maintained 240D just "fall apart" before, regardless of miles on the odo. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)