Yes, it will.

Using the "advanced search" on Google, six lines from the top is the word "Domain". Put in "www.peachparts.com" in the space provided.

In the advanced search, put in "measuring timing chain stretch" on the second line where it asks for the "exact phrase".

Put in "www.peachparts.com" as the domain.

Search will locate the DIY article written by Danny regarding this measurement. It will be the first result indicated by Google.

tangofox, when you asked that question about my valve adjustment the way you did, I knew exactly you would use the answer as a set up to come up with something like this... Which is perfectly fine with me... and I have a very logical answer to your question. Just make sure you read this post thoroughly this time... or you are bound to again miss the message it contains, as it has happened for the preceding posts...

In the case of the Haynes Manual's procedure for valve adjustment, there were no contradictory statements/advice coming from other experts (at least not to my knowledge...) The Haynes Manual said to set E = .30MM and I = .10MM and that was corroborated exactly that way by all other tutorials/sources I had consulted.

Conversely, in the case of the one droplet per second rate of dripping for the IP timing via the drip tube method proposed by the Haynes, there were major contrasting theories, some of them coming from well-known, reputable mechanical luminaries venerated for their knowledge and with a strong following (Danny, who posted here, for instance, knows one of them who swears convincingly by the 1-drop-every-20-secs method...) So, I understandably found the differences in the advice being dispensed unsettling... and confusing, to say the least. Hence, my reason for coming here and starting this thread.
Yellit, one of the contributors here, has himself come up with three mainstream different rates considered, in each individual case, to be the only sensible rate to be used... I have added a fourth one I came across.

I have an inquisitive mind and therefore ask questions... What you apparently in your own brand of thinking consider to be "baffling, inconsistent and seemingly irrational" logic is very logical to me.

And I was right to post here in order to get my answers, which I did... After Yellit brought it to the attention of the experts frequenting this forum, we have had Brian, for one, confirming that strict adherence to any of those methods does not make sense at all, with a more broad approach being more sensible and more in touch with reality. My initial question here was a conceptual one... a critique of method more than anything else. To me either ONE of those methods was necessarily right and the others wrong... OR neither of them was right at all.
Yellit saw exactly what I was talking about... Brian has confirmed that none of those methods are right in assuming those individual drip rates as the best and only approach to IP timing - which disparity among them was what I had found confusing and baffling in the first place. So, I got my answers here, and to full satisfaction, by people who really know what they are talking about...

My only question is, where were you when all this was taking place?!?
As I said before, it really pays off to thoroughly read what is being communicated as opposed to just glance at it and assume you know what that is, in your own preconceived idea of it... You stand to learn more from your participation in this forum that way.

__________________
1979 240D, W123, 105K miles, stick, white w/ tan interior.

Before or after you expressed your dissatisfaction with my inadequate level of technical knowledge?

I came to the conclusion early on that you were far more interested in being understood than you were interested in understanding.
That's an interesting comment from someone who was told (correctly) the same thing over and over, but refused to accept the reality of the matter.

Sorry... I apologize to you about that... I admit your answer did not satisfy me, as it showed that you didn't understand my question... You need to understand it was not about YOUR "inadequate level of technical knowledge..." If you want to put it that way, it was also mine then, and that of most everybody else... As Yellit put it splendidly in one of his last posts, there is a lot of misinformation around regarding this particular issue...

To the contrary, the first and only one who came up with the intellectually satisfactory answer I refer to in this thread was Brian.

Now, pal, please don't make it a personal issue. I've just realized a minute ago I hurt your feelings with a not very considerate reply to that post of yours... I am very sorry about that, and again, I apologize... Now please let's drop it, as it has become a personal matter for you now and it has very little to contribute to this thread.

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1979 240D, W123, 105K miles, stick, white w/ tan interior.

if i was younger(am 66) i would go back and read this thread, but my experience with timing the ip in the older diesels is to use 1 drop per second, no buckets can be used, the height of the fuel filter is the intended pressure required and i have to do all in short steps(keep the fuel filter open at the top and wait a few seconds to let the pressure you build with the hand pump equalize). any time i cant get the ip to time on #1 i always find the ip is at fault.one can move on to another cylinder and time there.
best way i find to get started is to take all lines off the ip,crank the engine and see if i get a consistent amount of fuel from each ip port, if you dont then there is a fault in the ip,i really believe that most get discouraged and give up because the ip has a fault.
hope this helps

Where is Leathermang on this thread...?....I thought for sure this would bring him out....I hope he is ok.....
I now remember something he said a while back about this issue.....something like this...

Since Mercedes made the engine that the Bosch pump is on...Mercedes recommends the 1 drop per second rate in the FSM....

He also stated that Haynes or Chiltons or other publications did not make the Engine/IP combination so that data may be off...

He has a good point about the Mercedes manual being the most correct as opposed to the other publications....
I think he stated it like this...(Get the damn FSM and count the damn drips)...,,that was pretty clear....
I think he also was the one that came up with the constant pressure diesel bucket....
So my guess is if one had to pick from this hodgepodge kettle of info ...the Benz FSM would be the one....

Where are you LeathermanG...!!??....

Computer engine controls are going to take all the fun out of this for future generations.....
Fixed IPs are simply going to ruin things for good diesel fellowship....

__________________
1978 Yellow 300D (The Mustard Toad)
1980 Blue 240D (The Iron Toad)
1989 Grey Mitsu.4WD Mighty Max Pickup (Needs a Diesel transplant bad)

(Open the pod bay doors HAL)

My sincere thanks for your info on the Google SEARCH method in your example in POST #61 opens up a who new world of intelligent searching on MercedesShop.Com and will also include the Wikka/Wiki... or whatever the DIY series of articles are called!
I hope others out there are paying attention and will check this out IF you were not already aware of this SEARCH method using Google!
Danke sehr
Grazie molto
Merci beaucoup
Obrigado muito muito [Portugese}
Thank you very much,

He's my favorite guy... Greg. He hasn't been around in a long time, and I too hope he's OK... He was the first to help me when I got my first MB... and the one I got the very best and most involved advice from...

I tried to get in touch through the email... no answer.

We all miss you, Greg... Where the heck are you?

__________________
1979 240D, W123, 105K miles, stick, white w/ tan interior.

Larry Perkins! I didn't know you were 66... You come across as a much younger guy... (BTW, should it be your BD, as it might appear to be, also given the fact that you made a special reference to it in the title: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!)

First time I hear about keeping the fuel filter open at the top... though it makes sense... if the height of the fuel filter is the intended pressure required...

But what if the IP is at fault? I didn't get that one clearly... that is, if you don't get a consistent amount of fuel from each port after cranking the engine... what is it you do? (get a new IP or move on to the cyl from whose port you got a consistent amount of fuel?!?)

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1979 240D, W123, 105K miles, stick, white w/ tan interior.

nah,birthday has passed,looking at 67 now.
look i believe the the write up in the haynes manual ,diesel 123,page 116,item#8 is correct, at least it works for me. go read it.(if u got a different manual look for injector pump timing)
if i have any questions about a ip i will time all cylinders,with this older stuff u never know who has been there and what they knew,so if one wants to you can remove the side cover of the pump and adjust the injection point of any cylinder(much easier on a stand of course)
just mark the crank so u can see 24deg (180 deg from the factory marks)there should be a line already there 180 from factory marks. measure the distance from tdc to 24 before tdc and thats your target. go by firing order and check all cylinders.
i will say this, the biggest problem i have found with ip's,injectors is rust,one sits for a long time moisture gets there and these components are so precicely built that it just locks the moving parts up.
i helped a friend the other day who rebuilt the complete engine,took about a year,had a good ip from a running car,the thing smoked like a fraight train,we tried timing,couldnt get,no consistent flow from ip with lines off(#3 would shoot fuel over the fender,lol) replaced ip with another one from a running car,timed it, fired her up and no smoke.(mosquitos are safe in louisville now)
larry perkins lou ky

My HBD timing was off, then...
Well, imagine how that would have made you feel, were I right on target... And feel it anyway, why not?

I have it and you are totally right... I had overlooked item #8.

Thanks for your precious advice!

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1979 240D, W123, 105K miles, stick, white w/ tan interior.

BINGO! What you are looking for is a drip. The point at which you get a drip rather than nothing or a stream is quite narrow. It might vary by a few degrees, but you will be plenty close enough if you are set for a drip.

If you are into hair splitting, then a piezo electric gizmo for a timing light will get it down to a frogs eyelash, but by getting this precise, you or no one else will ever be able to tell the difference.

My $0.02,

Larry,
As one who has been striving to get one of the "piezo" "gizmo"s working, let me belatedly announce that we finally have a working system... so to speak. I found that the piezo sensor we had that clamps onto the heavy fuel lines used on these vintage MBZs, I found our clamp sensor was apparently defective. So two new piezo clamps [ 6 & 5 mm] did the trick. We are using a Kent Moore "Tach-N-Time" meter I purchased on Ebay for ~$200. Let me point out that the standard inductive strobe light I initially used was NOT sensative enough but my Indy friend "Karl" the mad Hungarian has a "Snap-On" light that works with the meter every time now. Another part of this "show-n-tell" is that after using our timing meter/light on numerous 70(s) and 80(s) MBz diesels [ several at our last S.F. EastBay GTG in July]... after this considerable experience with our working meter/light, I can report that most cars have been found retarded 4 to 10 degrees or set at from 14 to 20 degrees BTDC. My Son's '80 300D IP was off by 11 degrees and once reset ~26 deg. BTDC the car's fuel mileage has improved about 15 %.

Let me say IMHO a practical accuracy for timing for us at present is ~ +/- 1 degree largely due to the limitations of being forced to make the adjustments "statically". Now IF only we could figure out a way to make the timing adjustments "dynamically" [ aka with the engine running ]!?
I'm thinking that we might try fabricating extra long HP fuel lines that would be used temporarily for IP timing adjustments. Such fuel lines would loop much higher and thus be flexible enough to allow the IP to be turned/ adjusted while the engine is running. "Yellit" and I have also talked extensively another yet to be successfully invented tool... some kind of attachable lever/bar/handle that would extend up and out of the engine well to increase the ease and accuracy of your IP adjustments! "Yellit" [Kevin] and I would appreciate any thoughts/ideas that you might have on either of the above described yet-2-B invented tools needed to add the ability of dynamic timing adjustments to go with our now functioning meter and timing strobe light!

Even with such tools, I think +/- 0.5 degrees would be the absolute best one should expect... and probably 1 degree is more practicable... so I truly hope Barry is correct that once we get this close to what he believes is the ultimate "sweet spot IP timing setting"... I hope his Glow Plug MiliVolt Method can then take over and together with our ideas for flexible test/adjustment fuel line and attachable lever/handle... then we will have a workable way to "tweak" these IPs/Engines probably somewhere near the 26 deg. BTDC mark!
Regards,

Sam,

Your piezo experimentation sounds like fun. From the first time I heard about this possibility, however, it has been my thinking that the only practical advantage to this timing method would be for speed in a shop environment where time is money. IMHO the added accuracy would not be worth the expense.

In my experience, plus or minus one degree or even two is plenty good enough.

Don't get me wrong. I have been through numerous things in my life, where my engineering curiosity draws me into something for the sake of the experimentation. Please keep us posted about your findings.

Larry I of course I deffer to your age as I am only 65. The electronic system makes a lot of sense just to verify the timing is not off for example. Quick and fast. Or as you stated very quick in a working enviroment. Basically the same as checking a conventional older cars ignition timing.
One of our esteemed site members has managed to develop an average of how far off the typical example is in every day service. Or at least in California. Sam's results indicate that if the example you own has not had the injection pump timing checked since sometime before aquisition it should be done.
Sam also has clarified in at least one example. The decrease in fuel milage for so many degrees off. This was an unknown before I believe.. From that information some extrapolation could produce a graph of sorts at some point. Of course the graph itself is not as important as getting people to stop assuming their timing is good. Especially when they have sub standard fuel milage and performance or hard starting issues in colder weather. No it will not always be the timing yet it can certainly contribute to the overall problem.
Larry your information about tweaking the pump internally using external refference marks is good as well.. Do you mind revealing just how you internally change sequential timing effect on one element in the pump if it's need is indicated? At some point the supply of good used earlier cheap pumps is going to dry up.
This all tends to move us even closer to dealing with some of the problems encountered. The only thing I can think of additionaly is to make sure volume flow from each injector is simular before moving on.. Or some of us limited knowledge guys like myself would be chasing their tails so to speak.
Once pump condition is so rough the number one element cannot be used for primary timing the pump is getting a little shakey. I assume this is wear of the elements bore and cylinder that will not allow proper cut off at almost zero rotational speed. I also assume although assumptions are dangerous that Larry suggests moving on to another element for timing if you cannot kill the drips.Yet these marginal pumps still function at higher rotational speeds . Anyways I am really glad to see the subject being mulled over a little more.
Each time this happens a little more information creeps into common knowledge even if we do not apply it all.
Yellit has a vast curiosity in this area as well. He has also done quite a bit of work to move things along nicely. Perhaps he could comment how it appears possible to modify the internal pump components settings as well. He has taken a pump apart for study reasons some time ago I believe.
I have also noticed a few hard to locate and solve problems in the last six months. The milli volt method in hindsight would have substantially reduced the effort to at least localise them for what it's worth.