pushed in cylinder sleeve, how long till another blown head gasket? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Diesel911 · #16 05-15-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcounts

Always a good feeling when you float an idea and someone who knows more than you seconds it

Maybe we know the same thing!
I know I have learned a lot from this forum and the members.

rcounts · #17 05-15-2008, 07:33 PM

Probably a crazy idea, but would it possibly work to put in TWO head gaskets - one on top of the other, and maybe torque the headbolts an extra 5 ft/lbs?

I can't think of much else unless you could get someone with a machine shop to machine you a steel shim ring the exact ID and OD of the liner and .0014" thick - though you might even want it to be .0015" thick for a little extra sealing pressure against the gasket & head.

Both crazy ideas, I know, but that's about all I can think of...

larry perkins · #18 05-15-2008, 08:03 PM

i sure would like to see some pictures of that cylinder because there would have to be a break between the top of the sleeve where the bore is machined for the sleeve land(sorta looks like a hat rim ,look at sleeve design in the manual) .
there is no normal groove at the bottom of the bore in a 617 engine,for holding the sleeve,and if some one installed a straight sleeve the head gasket couldnt possible hold because the gasket seals to the top hat of the sleeve.
larry perkins lou ky

Cervan · #19 05-16-2008, 05:16 AM

How about a copper headgasket?

Diesel911 · #20 05-16-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcounts

Probably a crazy idea, but would it possibly work to put in TWO head gaskets - one on top of the other, and maybe torque the headbolts an extra 5 ft/lbs?

I can't think of much else unless you could get someone with a machine shop to machine you a steel shim ring the exact ID and OD of the liner and .0014" thick - though you might even want it to be .0015" thick for a little extra sealing pressure against the gasket & head.

Both crazy ideas, I know, but that's about all I can think of...

Even if it did seal properly it would lower your compression.
The shim idea has better possibilites but something that thin might esily burn.

winmutt · #21 05-16-2008, 02:05 PM

Put a new engine in.

patbob · #22 05-16-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker164

I wonder if it's worth trying to figure out who installed the cylinder sleeves?

Yes. Find out how many miles ago it was installed. If many, then it might well go many more with a new gasket. In other words, perhaps it was the added heat that caused the gasket to fail.

Quote:

Seems unlikely that it would slip down, but maybe the extreme temperatures of me overheating it and a CTE mismatch allowed this to happen? Can't really come up with any other explanation except for the sleeve being way too short in the first place.

If it happend as a result of the overheating, then it wasn't driven too much afterwards. Would the carbon deposits (or lack of) at the top edge of the liner indicate whether this is what happened?

Having the liner a bit low means the gasket isn't getting the normal surface for sealing. But.. if it's been that way for a bunch of miles, I'd put a new gasket on and hope for the best.

Or you could put in a used engine, which will have some new set of unknown issues, and see if it was the better expense. Just.. keep the old engine for a little while in case you decide the replacement was worse than fixing yours.

Oh.. and broken temp sensors don't cause vehicles to overheat. You need to figure out why that happened too before deciding to fix or replace.

jparker164 · #23 05-19-2008, 03:32 PM

I got a Carfax report on it and it didn't have any service records at all, and nothing from the car's previous life in texas except for the loan it was originally bought with.

I went to the shop today and took a bunch of pictures of the depressed sleeve and gasket, they can be seen Here
http://picasaweb.google.com/parkerjohntwo/HeadGasket

I could probably find a place/way to make a shim. Also, I miswrote earlier at some point, it's 14 thousandths of an inch or .014".

As for the sleeve moving when It overheated, I don't think that was the case. The gasket has some kind of metal that compresses plastically (unrecoverable) to seal the cylinders and it had attempted to fill the gap when it was installed, meaning the cylinder sleeve was low when it was installed.

According to the mechanic the gasket looks pretty new. There is also some faint polishing marks on the block that may indicate it having been polished at some point. I included pictures of it's numbering in the album. It also appeared to me that the gasket blew on a different cylinder then the one with the depressed sleeve too but I don't really know what to look for as far as that goes. There are pictures of all this stuff in the above link.

patbob - The temperature sensor didn't have anything to do with overheating, it was a stuck thermostat that did that. The broken temperature sensor just made so I didn't know it was overheating till coolant started wafting into the cab.

Larry - I don't have a shop manual for the car (yet) when you say it's like a hat I'm picturing an upside-down top hat, is that what you are saying?

jsap · #24 09-07-2010, 11:22 PM

Just curious. What did you choose to do? Did you replace the gasket, and is it still holding? I'm not certain about your particular engine, but most Mercedes diesels have wet liners, so coolant may get past. Most would say that slipped cylinder linings would mark the engine's end of service, so I'm curious how you fared....

t walgamuth · #25 09-08-2010, 06:18 AM

All the benz diesels I have seen are dry liners, including the 616 and 617.

layback40 · #26 09-08-2010, 08:33 AM

I agree that the sleeve was probably put in short & then surfaced off. Just heating & cooling over time would allow it to move down. No point in trying to lift it, as it will just move down again. A new sleeve or motor change are the best options.

whunter · #27 09-08-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker164

Short version:

#4 sleeve on a 260,000 mile OMM617.951 is pushed 14 thousandths too far into the block. It has been this way for at least 3,500 miles but eventually an unfortunate major overheating caused the head gasket to blow around it. Milling the head down would leave the piston overlap at .042", which is 7 thousandths over the MB tolerance. Options are:

A: Replace head gasket for an additional $590 and hope it lasts for a long time.

B: New engine for around $1000 (seems the best to me, although there are some ifs involved)

C: Mill down block as much as possible and cut the gap to 7 thousandths and new head gasket. Don't know how much this would cost.

What do you guys think?

Longer Version:

I have a 1984 300SD with 260,000 miles. Not that long ago I was driving it and the engine temperature gauge stopped working. I didn't thing too much of it but a few hundred miles later the thermostat stuck and it started overheating. I didn't know this was happening till the coolant hose broke and it started smelling like burning coolant in the car. long story short, massively overheated and the head gasket ended up blown.

I took it to a shop and they tore into it. They discovered a relatively new head gasket, although how new he wasn't sure. I had put at least 3,500 mile on it is all I know. They also discovered that the #4 piston sleeve was pushed in to the block 0.014" too far. Apparently in a past life this sleeve had been installed incorrectly, or somehow pushed in by something else. My mechanic and I couldn't really figure out how that could have happened. Getting the top resurfaced down 14 thousandths so that the sleeve is flush again will put the piston overlap 7 thousandths over MB's specified range of acceptable values so that isn't really an option. I'm $300 into the head gasket replacement already. My options are below:

1: continue with the head gasket for another $590 and hope for the best. Who knows how long it would last without overheating the engine again?

2: I may have a line on another engine for $1100 with 100,000 miles less on it then mine. I could then possibly sell my current engine's turbo and manifold locally for at least $300 and install the new engine. This seems like my best option, and I may be able to find someone who could help me install it myself thereby saving shop time. This seems like the best option

3: Mill the block down 7 thousandths for who knows how much more money and do #1

Anyone have any experience with this? What do you think I should do?

There is only one way to correct this issue = replace the sleeve...

Have a great day.

strelnik · #28 09-08-2010, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

There is only one way to correct this issue = replace the sleeve...Have a great day.

Can you remove the oil pan from the bottom with the engine in place on a 617? Then remove the head and have clear access to remove the piston then the sleeve?

I am asking this question because on a Citroen, you CAN replace the sleeve with the engine in the car in all cars from 1934-1999 except the 2 cylinder A-series (2CV, AMI and Dyane). The shape of the oil pan makes it possible but it's not easy, like changing the oil.

jsap · #29 09-08-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

All the benz diesels I have seen are dry liners, including the 616 and 617.

I believe all OM6's are dry. Some OM3's are dry and some are wet.

These are some wet benz diesels:

OM346
OM401
OM402
OM403
OM404
OM407
OM409
OM421
OM422
OM423
OM424
OM441
OM442
OM443
OM444
OM427
OM429
OM447

I agree with all of you that the best solution is a new block or an new liner (pushing back the slipped liner will see the same problem again). But, I was hoping jparker164 would tell us what he did. I'm curious if he simply replaced the gasket, and how long the gasket is holding, if at all.

winmutt · #30 09-08-2010, 02:56 PM

JB Weld!

I joke. Seriously.

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