Clutch Bleeding 300D 4 Spd Manual Swap - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

charmalu · #1 04-09-2009, 11:14 PM

I have a note book full of every manual transmission swap, shifter problem, vibration, transmission mount, cross member mount, Flywheel balancing, differential ratios, the good the bad and the ugly etc.....

I have evrything in, mounted, balanced, shortened, tightened and ready for launch.
Now I have read about bleeding the clutch from the bottom up to the reservor using the R/F brake caliper bleeder nipple, attaching a hose from it to the slave Cylinder bleeder nipple. then pumping the brake peddle to cycle the fluid and purge the air up into the reservor.

All my parts are new from Phill, All parts Express.

I used my motive power Brake bleeder and first flushed all brakes lines to make sure every thing is good and clean. don`t want to push dirty fluid in to the clutch system or the brake system for that matter. also while it was connected to the reservor went ahead and shot fluid through the clutch system and out the slave cyl.

I then connected a piece of clear tubing, opened the bleeders and pumped the brake peddle to reverse flush. I didn`t seem to be getting anywhere, and opened the slave bleeder hopping for gravity bleed, came in and made a pot of coffee.
went out later and nothing.

Today 4-10.
I picked up some 3/16 tubing thinking the 1/4 in I was using wasn`t fitting tight enough on the slave bleeder. why does it have to be smaller that the brake caliper bleeder?
I warmed up the end to get it slide onto the caliper, opened the bleeder to get the tube filled with fluid, the opened the slave and pushed the tube on.
got in the car and slowly started to pump the brake peddle. after about 6 or so pumps, WHOOOOSH the tube came off the caliper and sprayed fluid

. HMMM cleaned up that mess. then tried it with the 1/4 in tubing, fits tight on the caliper, and will fit on the slave but not as tight as I would like. Iam then on my hands a knees reaching in and pushing the brake peddle and looking under the car. third pump, WHOOSH off the slave cyl.

I thought you ESS OH BEE, you`re getting flushed. reconnected the Motive, opened the slave cylinder and pumped the damd thing to 15LB PSI and had fluid blasting out. closed everything up, started car (have rear end up on stands) pushed in clutch, felt sort of firm. and put it in gear. can feel a slight grinding, push in clutch and still in gear. Iam at a loss here

.

It seems I can get fluid from the top down, but not from the bottom up.
This is the first time I have had brake/clutch system kick my rear end like this.

Charlie

chetwesley · #2 04-10-2009, 01:53 AM

I think you know this already from my other thread that you responded in, but essentially I am at the exact same point with my attempts to bleed the clutch in my 240D. I also had fluid coming out in streams when I did the top down method, but nothing seems to happen when doing the bottom up method. I had given up and assumed that it was a problem with some part of the hydraulic system and was about to move on to replacing the parts one by one.

One thing that I did that I would suggest is that you use small hose clamps for the tubing to clamp them on to the bleeder valves, then you can use the 1/4" hose on both and it won't pop off... I didn't have any problems with that after using the hose clamps, but I did have fluid leaking around the threads on the slave bleeder.

I hope for both of our sakes that someone can answer about why the bottom up bleeding method seems to do nothing!

charmalu · #3 04-10-2009, 02:06 AM

In theory it is simple, which it is.

You have a 240D. I have a 300D which puts the transmission one cylinder further back, it makes it a little tighter between the slave cyl and the tunnel. that would be a tiney lil hose clamp.

Iam going to pick up some fittings tomarrow and drop down the hose size on my Motive pwr bleeder so I can back flush from the slave on up.

I have been showered with brake fluid twice today, we`ll see what happens tomarrow

. Iam so close, yet so far away getting this back on the road.

I have read all the problems people have had bleeding these systems. yet others it is a piece of cake. some gravity bleed, mine won`t even do that.

Charlie

#4 04-10-2009, 02:26 AM

I use the 2 person pump-n-crack method like is normally used with brakes.

chetwesley · #5 04-10-2009, 02:30 AM

Yea, I guess I don't know what it is like with a bigger engine in there. Hard for me to visualize, but you could just take the slave bleeder valve out all the way and screw on the clamp and hose while a little fluid dribbles out of the slave. It shouldn't take too much time to put the clamp on and you obviously have air in there anyway... now what to do with the clamp once it is time to take it off and you've closed the bleeder valve... hmmm... I'll let you figure that out

Believe me though, I feel your pain. My car has been sitting for 4+ months because I haven't resolved this issue yet...

Oh, and as for getting sprayed with brake fluid, you aren't truly initiated until you have TASTED it.

edit: Forced, I just wanted to mention that I did the two person crack and bleed method twice in my attempts and still didn't get any results with that, but perhaps Charlie will have better luck.

bgkast · #6 04-10-2009, 03:08 AM

Have You tried pressure bleeding with one of these: Brake bleeder - power bleeder Homemade

I guess I was lucky. I changed the hose between the master and slave and had no issues bleeding it with the pump and crack method.

rs899 · #7 04-10-2009, 06:32 AM

I replaced the master and slave on my 240D 5 years ago and it went like a dream- when I replaced them a few months ago it was a nightmare.

I still don't consistently have a firm pedal and I can't figure out why. I will say that I think you need to use the 2 person, crack and bleed method(using hose clamps) to have a prayer of working. I think the pumping pressure simply expands the typical vinyl hose we use to bleed and without closing the slave when the pedal is down, the fluid simply retreats back toward the brake caliper.

Rick

funola · #8 04-10-2009, 08:42 AM

Maybe your clutch arm is bent? Get a borescope and have a look inside after removing the slave cyl. Milwaukee Seesnake with LCD screen is available at Home Depot.

To prevent leaks through the nipple threads when back flushing try putting an o-ring there. When done, just tighted and crush the o-ring.

charmalu · #9 04-10-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgkast

Have You tried pressure bleeding with one of these: Brake bleeder - power bleeder Homemade

I guess I was lucky. I changed the hose between the master and slave and had no issues bleeding it with the pump and crack method.

That is exactly what I have, mine just isn`t home made. It is a brand name of Motive. it has one universal cap that has 2 chains that go around the MC, and has 2 J hooks the chains connect to. tighten down on the thumb screws and makes a secure tight seal. Used it on My datsun and worked very well.

It also has a cap that screws on the Mercedes reservor with a brass fitting a vinal tube is clamped onto. there is a rubber seal in the cap, and is no leaks. also has a gauge to show air pressure.

FUNOLA, I just had the engine out with the trans. replaced the auto for the manual 4 spd. all new clutch components, clutch arm is good and solid and straight. new throw out bearing, new MC and slave cyl. I also replaced the line from the Slave Cyl that crosses over the transmission with the rubber hose on the end. Part# 123-295-1713
The O ring sounds like it might help, I have an assortment of them.

With the 5 cyl being longer than the 4 cyl, it moves the transmission further back. this makes the rubber line a little too long, so a curly Q has to be in the hose to connect to the line coming from the master cyl. It doesn`t kink the hose, but any tighter it could. I have seen this at PNP on some. anyone have this problem?

Using the pump and bleed method then would be bleeding from the top down. I have already pressure bled from the top down, and pushed the clutch in and out to see if this would work out any air.
I talked to GAVIN LESLIE, and he let his gravity bleed, mine won`t do that.
www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=206755

OK. Iam off for some parts and will return

.

to be cont.

Charlie

Necrosavant · #10 04-10-2009, 12:51 PM

when i switched my 300 to a 240 4 speed it seemed like it wouldnt bleed at all pedal was very firm but would come back up when bled as well as i could.. but even with some resistance it would never allow me to go into gear.. i took slave back out and extended the rod about a half inch bolted it back up fired up engine then it slid right into gear nicely...went through so much frustration thinking it would bleed properly (got covered in lots of brake fluid) then turned out to be because of diffrence in engine case length...

leathermang · #11 04-10-2009, 12:57 PM

Charlie,
DO NOT pump that thing up that high again...
You were lucky that first time it swooshed out and made a mess that you were not down there and it shoot that stuff into your eyes....
At that pressure something else old could just let go and do the same thing...
SAFETY FIRST... so you can live and enjoy mechanical problems in the future...

funola · #12 04-10-2009, 04:30 PM

Charmalu, I thought I was posting in Chetwesley's thread when I made the bent clutch arm comment which was meant for his car. As to succesful clutch bleeding, you can't have any leaks in the system. If you are having so much trouble, it maybe worthwhile to pressure test each section of the clutch system with air using a schrader valve, psi gauge and plugs.

charmalu · #13 04-10-2009, 11:14 PM

Finally! 5PM, She came alive, and just when I was about to call Pick N Pull

.

I decided to connect the pressure bleeder to the slave, since the pressure bleeder has 1/4 in tubing and the slave takes a 3/16 tubing, I picked up some brass hose barbs that are threaded on the ends (1/4 & 1/8 in) to screw into a little valve I have. this way I could control the flow better.

Screwed cap from the bleeder onto the master cylinder, and ran the tube in a gater Aid bottle that I drilled a hole in the top to catch the over flow.

Pumped up the bleeder, opened the valve to purge out the air, and then pushed it on the slave nipple. also put a small O ring as FUNOLA suggested to maybe keep it from leaking. no go, still drippled out.
Didn`t seem like it was doing anything, check the over flow bottle, nothing

.

so went back to the R/F caliper to slave trick. pushed on the 1/4 in tube and used a small hose clamp. don`t need another bath with the hose popping off.
I had my wife pump the brake peddle, opened the bleeder, and placed my finger over the hose end when she let up on the peddle. did this to purge out the air.
connected to the slave cyl. then did the pump and crack the nipple trick, and for what ever reason, the clutch works

.

It shifts, no grinding, feels firm, and I ain`t touching it ever

.

Put the carpets back in, dropped it back on the ground from the jack stands, cleared a path out of the shop of tools, drip pans, ext cords, lights and other crap, grabbed the wife and off we went. drove down to Watsonville and back, put 30 miles on her. do notice a little vibration around 1700 to 2000 RPM or so, but read others have had it also. maybe a little peaking and tweeking to do.

once over 2000RPM`s it really picks up and goes. seems to be a little more agressive. mabe wishful thinking, I don`t know. with the auto 60MPH was about 3000RPM now 60 is 2800RPM. does seem a little noiser with the gear box. the 240D we pulled it from had 211000 miles. I have almost 344000 on the car, so this is new parts

Leaving in the morning for Carson City, Nv. going over hwy 50. it gets up to 7700ft, so at the summit. this will be an interesting trip. the maiden voyage, or shake down cruise. we`ll be back on our own steam, or the back end of AAA

.

thank you for all the replys and encouragement.

Charlie

chetwesley · #14 04-10-2009, 11:27 PM

That's great to hear... I am going to try to ride on your wave of success this weekend!

When you did the pump and crack, were you opening and closing the slave bleeder or the caliper bleeder?

Also, when you did that, did you have any leaking around the slave bleeder, and did you still have the o-ring on it?

I also tried to back bleed with a pressure bleeder from bottom up as you did, but had the same result you did - no result! Fluid didn't seem to go anywhere other than a slow leak around the slave bleeder valve threads.

charmalu · #15 04-11-2009, 12:45 AM

I was opening the slave bleeder, and it was leaking down from the slave nipple threads, didn`t seem to want to go in. I used a small O ring out of my assortment box that fit tight on the threads and left it as close to the end as possible so when I screwed it in it would make a seal. It didn`t work very well.

It all sounds so easy when reading it in the book, or as other have said, "all you have to do is pump the brake peddle". It seems like we get different results depending who is doing it.

I have no idea what I did to finally wake it up, but it works. I don`t know what the answer is, Dumb Luck?

I would give you a hand if we were closer.

Charlie