Topic: 240D manual 4 speed into a 300SD- Discuss!! - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Icefire · #16 04-28-2009, 01:12 AM

Please note there are some W126 manual transmission cars, mostly grey market, You could get a 280SE, with a 4 or 5 speed, If you could find one of these cars you could get around many of the issues I posted. The pedals would be direct fit, the shift rods direct fit, the speedo, driveshaft, flywheel etc. I was posting my results with using 240D parts in my W126 coupe.

Since you have an 83, you will probably not have the same pilot bearing issue that TomJ and I have had.

Good luck if you decide to proceed.

#17 04-28-2009, 01:21 AM

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Originally Posted by leathermang

There are also many who have vibrations they can not find the cause of..

You only don't know the cause. Everybody else knows the cause as harmonic resonance and the simple solution is to not lug the engine in that revv range.

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AND more importantly ... you NOT being able to explain why MB did not put the two together

No, you are the only one that can't grasp that the combination was not sold here for MARKETING reasons.

The OM617.91x was sold with a manual transmission. The only difference the transmission sees between a 91x and a 95x is torque input. As proven by myself and many others, there is no physical reason why an 95x cannot be mated with a manual transmission with great success.

#18 04-28-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

You are wrong, in 1985 there was a switch, Please see TOMJ 's swap threads,

Please note that what you are quoting applies ONLY to late 1984 to 1985 engines. 951 and 952 makes NO difference. My engine block is an early 1984 951 (300SD) so I know for absolute fact you are incorrect since I use the standard 240D pilot bearing unmodified. Since crashone has an 83, none of that applies to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

I have a 1971 280SE sitting in my driveway...but I don't look at the other numbers often..

Do you not know how to tell a W116 and W126 apart? The difference is pretty big.

Icefire · #19 04-28-2009, 01:32 AM

Forced, in my original post I didnt mention 951 or 952, I mentioned specifically 85 300 SD, So you are in fact agreeing with me in regarts to the late 84 & 85 OM617s requiring a different pilot bearing, but in your own smartass way. If you read my post you could not possibly disagree with me. it doesnt matter I shouldnt have even bothered to mention it since the original poster is using an 83 SD. We arent even disagreeing you just misread my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Please note that what you are quoting applies ONLY to late 1984 to 1985 engines. 951 and 952 makes NO difference. My engine block is an early 1984 951 (300SD) so I know for absolute fact you are incorrect since I use the standard 240D pilot bearing unmodified.

Do you not know how to tell a W116 and W126 apart? The difference is pretty big.

#20 04-28-2009, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

it doesnt matter I shouldnt have even bothered to mention it since the original poster is using an 83 SD.

Exactly.

leathermang · #21 04-28-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

You only don't know the cause. Everybody else knows the cause as harmonic resonance and the simple solution is to not lug the engine in that revv range.

No, you are the only one that can't grasp that the combination was not sold here for MARKETING reasons.

We are talking about the combo of turbo and manual transmission..

Lets assume you are correct about the reason it was not ' marketed' here in the US... cultural differences....

But that does not explain why that combo was not offered ANYWHERE in the world by Mercedes...
it was offered by others at times.... but the type of turbo and the type of injectors may have played a part in its acceptance...although I am not sure if the combo is still being offered even by others...

But the ability of the automatic trans torque converter to work fine without excess wear in getting the car going while the engine is winding up to the point that the turbo kicks in does...

#22 04-28-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

We are talking about the combo of turbo and manual transmission..

Really?

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Lets assume you are correct about the reason it was not ' marketed' here in the US... cultural differences....

I am correct in this case.

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But that does not explain why that combo was not offered ANYWHERE in the world by Mercedes...

It does actually. USA got almost all of the 617.95x engines produced with the exception of the option for one in the 300TD. The 300D was the high-end W123 offered in the USA. Americans don't want a manual in the first place let alone in the high end luxury model. Europeans are different in that the 300D was a utility car and they do prefer manuals but high-output engines and expensive cars are heavily taxed. Nearly every turbodiesel MB has sold in Europe, with the exception of the high end models, has been offered with a manual from 1987 on.

It makes economical and marketing sense to everyone but you.

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it was offered by others at times.

"Others" are not Mercedes.

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but the type of turbo and the type of injectors may have played a part in its acceptance.

Not in the least. The ONLY difference between turbo and non turbo injectors is 20bar pop pressure to make up for the difference in combustion working pressure (torque).

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.although I am not sure if the combo is still being offered even by others...

What combo? Turbo diesels and manuals? Nah. Only every semi in the USA, all the Dodge/GM/Ford pickup diesels, VW's diesels and almost every one of MB's diesel models in the rest of the world. MB does not sell any diesel manuals in the USA right now for the exact same reason they never have here, marketing.

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But the ability of the automatic trans torque converter to work fine without excess wear in getting the car going while the engine is winding up to the point that the turbo kicks in does.

No, that makes no sense whatsoever. Clearly you have never driven a turbocharged manual before. The clutch does not need to be slipped until the turbo kicks in.

t walgamuth · #23 04-28-2009, 06:08 AM

I gotta agree with forced on this. They weren't offered with the turbo for marketing reasons...period. I can see no reason technically or mechanically.

leathermang · #24 04-28-2009, 09:11 AM

Very interesting that yall can only give examples of other makes... or other type vehicles... or later models....

Then are sure that retrofitting this combo to the 1980-85 diesels is just hunky dory.

Then there is the potential problem of the balance of the flywheel to the engine. It is possible by accident that a retrofit flywheel can be placed on the engine and be the same position needed to work properly .... but having read the FSM concerning the care they prescribe even just replacing a flywheel on an engine which had a factory installed flywheel I would be concerned with following the instructions.... which are very explicit for some reason which I assume yall attribute to the instruction manual department filling up pages to justify their jobs....

OF those that have done this we are still working with a relatively short reporting time...and have to factor in whether people who get disgusted and sell or undo their project machine are likely to come back and report on their dashed dreams of the perfect car... and we are working with a very small ' N ' to begin with for a competent study of the situation.

I have done my best to describe what I consider are the potentials for problems... yall are SURE of things which I have not seen evidence of... things which may actually constitute urban ( Mercedes ) legends made up to try to explain the situation after the fact.

The Mercedes people had very high standards.... their marketing and research department may have decided that while the car CAN be started up from a stop without slipping the clutch that many people would not want to accept that compared to being able to floor the accelerator .... that their reputation for putting together great cars would be at risk...

#25 04-28-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Very interesting that yall can only give examples of other makes... or other type vehicles... or later models.

Please read again.

Quote:

Only every semi in the USA, all the Dodge/GM/Ford pickup diesels, VW's diesels and almost every one of MB's diesel models in the rest of the world. MB does not sell any diesel manuals in the USA right now for the exact same reason they never have here, marketing.

All of MB's vans, A, B, C, G, entry level E class models are offered with a manual. MB doesn't sell the E or Sprinter in manual here for marketing reasons even though they are both offered in manual elsewhere.

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Then there is the potential problem of the balance of the flywheel to the engine.

No there isn't. Its either neutral or slightly off balance. A match balance by a machine or race shop can make the manual flywheel the exact same balance as the flex plate.

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OF those that have done this we are still working with a relatively short reporting time.

4 years in my case, 5 in Randy's, almost 7 in Tom's and a few years for others is short? Tom has been using his for as comparatively long as the 617.95x was in production!

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and have to factor in whether people who get disgusted and sell or undo their project machine

I have yet to see or hear from one.

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yall are SURE of things which I have not seen evidence of.

"Not seen" and "not looking" are not the same.

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The Mercedes people had very high standards.

The Americans don't so Mercedes determined what most Americans would want, power and automation. Simple as that.

So please explain why no 300D here was sold with a manual climate control or manual windows despite both early and late W123 bodies being sold with it elsewhere in the world and its 100% bolt-in? Thats right, marketing.

t walgamuth · #26 04-28-2009, 06:33 PM

I have a very minor secondary vibration at certain rpm in my car. I think that that is characteristic of the five. I wouldn't be surprised if Mb decided that 'mericans wouldn't accept that in a high end car....and I bet they were right....back then.

In my case there was an additional flywheel thingie attached to the donut on the back of the tranny which my indie left off when they installed my five speed. I imagine that that would help minimize the current vibration that I am experiencing.

These are old and not too valuable cars now. Any way folks can keep them on the road is a good thing. Stick conversions seem ideal to me. Mine is far from stock but it is running 99.99% all factory parts.

MB didn't build them this way.....but I did.

crashone · #27 04-28-2009, 10:08 PM

WHHOAAA!!! 2 pages of discussion!!

Thank you, I knew a w123 to w123 was bolt in, but I was not sure how a w123 to a w126 would work. It sounds like some custom cutting and welding will get it done. I did make up a drive shaft for a 190D w201 5 speed conversion last year that is still woking so I guess I can try a w126 shaft.

Hopefully I will be able to change the '83 differential out with an '85 while I'm doing this. It won't be done overnight but maybe soon.

My main objective is to have some fun and end up with a 26 year old car that gets better fuel mileage than these new pieces of crap they are shoving out the door.

leathermang · #28 04-28-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

In my case there was an additional flywheel thingie attached to the donut on the back of the tranny which my indie left off when they installed my five speed. I imagine that that would help minimize the current vibration that I am experiencing.

Tom, I seem to remember a change in the flex joints mentioned for the five speed trans... it might have been a later TSB as compared to in the manual... I do not remember for sure... that might take out that last little bug...when I find it I will send it your way...

#29 04-28-2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

In my case there was an additional flywheel thingie attached to the donut on the back of the tranny which my indie left off when they installed my five speed. I imagine that that would help minimize the current vibration that I am experiencing.

The euro 300D has that damper. A call to the Classic Center said they are no longer available and the repair for a cracked one is to leave it off.

t walgamuth · #30 04-29-2009, 06:00 AM

Thats good to know.

Greg, what is a TSB, please?