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  #1  
Old 11-17-2000, 01:55 AM
joegolden's Avatar
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dalton, Georgia
Posts: 839
HELP! I need to check stretch!

I tried earlier with no response so I will try once more. I have the valve cover off on my 84' 300d and want to check the stretch on my timing chain. I do not have all the proper tools to do so but was wondering if there was a rough and simple way of doing so for the meantime? I have the hood closed with all the rain and I am nervous leaving the cover off with all the moisture in the air! Please offer any suggestions. I hope I did not expose the insides of the engine to the elements! Thanks for any suggestions! Joe
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2000, 02:54 AM
unkl300d's Avatar
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: San Francisco, Ca
Posts: 2,267
Hey Dude, check the archives using the search
function. I'm sure I read that you
can pull on the chain with hand and
measure or guesstimate the slack.
I saw a mechanic do it to my 300D once but I don't know how to interpret.
Good Luck.

------------------
1979 300D
133K miles
1989 300SE
1995 C280
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2000, 08:31 AM
LarryBible
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Posts: n/a
joe,

You CANNOT check the chain on this engine by pulling on the chain to guess at the slack. The tensioner tightens the chain as it wears. The procedure, however, is quite simple.

You will need a 27MM socket that you can get on the crankshaft pulley centerbolt.

Turn the engine until you start seeing the timing marks on the harmonic balancer. Once you see the marks, turn very slowly until you are exactly at TDC. Look at the notch on the camshaft and see if it is lined up with the mark on the front camshaft mount. If you don't see the mark on the camshaft at all, turn the crankshaft one complete turn and set it at TDC again. You should then be able to see the mark.

If the engine has had frequent and religious oil changes, the mark on the camshaft will be lined up perfectly with the mark on the mount. If not, the mark will lag, and will not quite have made it to the mark on the mount. If it is lagging by more than a couple of degrees, it is time to roll in a new chain.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2000, 09:03 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 6,844
Larry,

I was beginning to think you taught this stuff , or somethin. On this one I have to disagree.

I have looked at hundreds of MB timing marks (at the cam) and they are only accurate enough to know which tooth to line up. There is 18degrees between each tooth. If you marked and followed your own specific motor you might could form a judgement. To just drop in and view it isn't good science.

The proper way to do it is very simple. The valve clearance is removed and the engine rotated till the intake valve on number one cylinder is pushed exactly 2mm down by the cam lobe. Any resonable dial indicator will measure this.

When the motor is in this position the crank position is read from the crank scale and indicator and compared to the book value. In the case af a 617.95 motor with cam ID 11 it should say 11deg ATDC. If it says 21deg then there would be ten degrees of stretch and a new chain would be in order.

I threw that 10deg increment out because I consider that much to be obvious, it might take 350,000 miles to stretch one that much though and if asked I say replace it at 200k. I very seldom measure chains by anything more than mileage and noise. I would replace anything in doubt over 100k. (ALL mileage numbers are my opinion only!!) (The timing numbers for cam ID 11 came from 1985 TDM)



------------------
Steve Brotherton
Owner 24 bay BSC
Bosch Master, ASE master L1
26 years MB technician
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2000, 02:07 PM
roas
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Thank You Stevebfl,

This is the exact reason I stop here at MercedesShop every day! Knowledge!

Would you mind listing a the numbers for a 96' C280, I am not even sure if there is chain or belt?

Also, if I am understanding you correctly, you need to two dial indicator's to do the job right(valve/crank), are these Mercedes specific and are they a big expense (within DIY'er means)?

One infinal question, is this procedure/tools/spec's covered on the MB CD available?

Thanks,

------------------
Ross
96 C280, Greenish Black
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2000, 04:02 PM
LarryBible
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I would expect that you only need one dial indicator. I don't know of a Benz that has ever been produced with a timing BELT rather than a chain. That's one of the reasons that I drive a Benz.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2011, 02:44 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,038
Whunter,
Thanks for bringing this one up...
I have been preaching that the FSM says that the notch on the camshaft IS ONLY FOR When you are building the engine.. so you are in the right quadrant or something...
not for checking the chain elongation later...because it is not accurate... EASY and FAST.. yes.. BUT JUNK OUTPUT from the "TEST"....
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2011, 12:22 PM
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Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by leathermang View Post
Whunter,
Thanks for bringing this one up...
I have been preaching that the FSM says that the notch on the camshaft IS ONLY FOR When you are building the engine.. so you are in the right quadrant or something...
not for checking the chain elongation later...because it is not accurate... EASY and FAST.. yes.. BUT JUNK OUTPUT from the "TEST"....
Of course no method that depends on valve timing, no matter how accurately measured, is going to measure actual chain stretch unless you are sure there is not an offset key fitted. For that you need to pull off the cam gear and take a look!
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2011, 01:01 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,038
Does the cam gear have to be pulled off to make that determination ?
je
Measuring ' actual chain elongation ' is really not the object...
the object is to get the cam, crank, and injection working relative to each other... actual elongation makes no difference once the settable variables are adjusted....
as long as they can be adjusted... when the max offset key will not put you back into the ballpark...
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:28 AM
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Posts: 3
I'm a neebie here & new to MB diesel (6 months). Coming from BMW e28 535i backround, I'm relearning how to drive PATIENTLY. I have an '81 240d, stick, manual everthing w/ 236k miles that has alot of the above symptoms. I've put approx 15k highway miles on her since purchase in 2/11. 214 miles a day on highway, I've lost 2 mpg, down from 28 to 26 hgwy avg, and it seems alot noisier (nailing?) I was not pleased w/ 28 mpg hgwy (no air & 70 mph cruise) now I'm down to 26.

Car was MB serviced until 2 yrs ago & I've got the records. Nothing shows injectors or timing chain replacement. I bought it w/ intention to convert to Veg oil, but have not.

Concerns:
1. Should I replace the injectors as a regular service item?
2. Replace or adjust timing chain?
3. Have injection timing checked/changed?

Items done:
1. 4 new CV joints in rear.
2. Redline gear oil in rear.
3. Redline MTL in gearbox
4. All new glows
5. Valve adjustment & cover gasket
6. New return lines from injectors

Any help will be appreciated, as I'll likely have to find/pay a mechanic here in FL to do the work. I Don't feel I have appropriate tools & diesel knowledge, though I'm pretty proficient with a wrench.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,038
The 'easiest ' low cost and most effective thing to do first is the injection timing check.
Do that and see what is helped or not..
I suggest only doing one thing at a time so you will know when you get through what it was that was in need of change... for future reference.
It is also something you should be able to do with a little studying and patience... lots of instructions in the archives... it is called the 2mm valve movement /drip method... right out of the MB FSM...

Your car has 236k miles... but you were not pleased by 28 mpg ? What MPG were you expecting ?
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:44 PM
whunter's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,347
Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by holgatelbi View Post
I'm a neebie here & new to MB diesel (6 months). Coming from BMW e28 535i backround, I'm relearning how to drive PATIENTLY. I have an '81 240d, stick, manual everthing w/ 236k miles that has alot of the above symptoms. I've put approx 15k highway miles on her since purchase in 2/11. 214 miles a day on highway, I've lost 2 mpg, down from 28 to 26 hgwy avg, and it seems alot noisier (nailing?) I was not pleased w/ 28 mpg hgwy (no air & 70 mph cruise) now I'm down to 26.

Car was MB serviced until 2 yrs ago & I've got the records. Nothing shows injectors or timing chain replacement. I bought it w/ intention to convert to Veg oil, but have not.

Concerns:
1. Should I replace the injectors as a regular service item?
2. Replace or adjust timing chain?
3. Have injection timing checked/changed?

Items done:
1. 4 new CV joints in rear.
2. Redline gear oil in rear.
3. Redline MTL in gearbox
4. All new glows
5. Valve adjustment & cover gasket
6. New return lines from injectors

Any help will be appreciated, as I'll likely have to find/pay a mechanic here in FL to do the work. I Don't feel I have appropriate tools & diesel knowledge, though I'm pretty proficient with a wrench.
If you would like to have it serviced in Florida by true experts = http://continentalimports.com
Call and talk to Steve Brotherton first.
1219 S. Main St.
Gainesville, FL 32601 USA
(352) 377-6604
fax (352) 377-2218
http://continentalimports.com



Answer:
NO....... 1. Should I replace the injectors as a regular service item?
Replace it...... 2. Replace or adjust timing chain?
Doubtful, your MPG was OK..... 3. Have injection timing checked/changed?

Items done:
Did you use a reamer to clean the holes??? 4. All new glows
If the locking nuts are worn out/failed = they need to be replaced and adjusted again.... 5. Valve adjustment & cover gasket




Here is where I start on every diesel that is new to me..

Algae/Fungus fixation...
Algae/Fungus fixation...

Biobor, what is it, why do I need it???
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/105304-biobor-what-why-do-i-need.html#post723857

Filters, Fungus, Biocide, etc.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/115952-filters-fungus-biocide-etc-post823378.html

Algae Clogged Filter Pic StarTron WORKS !
Algae Clogged Filter Pic StarTron WORKS !

*************************************************


Here is some educational information for you..



Diesel owners need to know fuel data
Diesel owners need to know fuel data


Emptying the fuel tank
Emptying the fuel tank

Why do I have vacuum in my diesel tank.....................?
Why do I have vacuum in my diesel tank.....................?

Fuel Tank Light
Fuel Tank Light

Fuel Gauge and Sending Unit threads
Fuel Gauge and Sending Unit threads

Fuel Sender 85 300D- Cleaned (Pics)
Fuel Sender 85 300D- Cleaned (Pics)

MB diesel filtration, how it works.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/141211-mb-diesel-filtration-how-works.html#post1055075

fuel filter change
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/112664-fuel-filter-change-post824006.html

Diesel filters, no tank strainers please.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/140349-diesel-filters-no-tank-strainers-please-post1046422.html?posted=1

Primary filter melted by biodiesel?
Primary filter melted by biodiesel?

I'm baffled and at wit's end!?!?!?!?!
I'm baffled and at wit's end!?!?!?!?!

300SD Fuel Filter Replacement Instructions
300SD Fuel Filter Replacement Instructions

240D fuel tank removal and cleaning
Good for any W123 sedan.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/92826-240d-fuel-tank-removal-cleaning-post813925.html

Check out this fuel pickup screen
Check out this fuel pickup screen

W123 Fuel Tank Screen Replacement
W123 Fuel Tank Screen Replacement

Valve adjustment OM615, 616, 617 FYI.
Valve adjustment OM615, 616, 617 FYI.

Diesel Timing Chain Links Thread
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/162071-diesel-timing-chain-thread.html#post1251434

Run away diesel, why does it happen?
Run away diesel, why does it happen?

Worried about Carbon, head, piston, and pre-chamber
Worried about Carbon, head, piston, and pre-chamber

Inline diesel Injection Pumps
FYI: Inline diesel Injection Pumps

Italian Tune up
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/general-information/145498-italian-tune-up-links-thread.html#post1095223

Strong nailing
Strong nailing

Delivery Valve Leak issues thread
Delivery Valve Leak issues thread

Injector + Heat shield + Nozzle, Prechamber + Collar and Nailing. LINK THREAD
Injector + Heat shield + Nozzle, Prechamber + Collar, and Nailing. LINK THREAD

Fuel only dribbles from removed injector line when cranking at WOT
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/296062-fuel-only-dribbles-removed-injector-line-when-cranking-wot.html#post2684156

How forcefully will fuel come out of injector lines
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/194197-how-forcefully-will-fuel-come-out-injector-lines.html#post1563783

Here's my payback! Diesel Primer Pump Replacement
Here's my payback! Diesel Primer Pump Replacement

Drip Timing Threads
Drip Timing Threads

Help: What oil goes into Injector Pump??
Help: What oil goes into Injector Pump??

Diesel Injection Pump Timing Device threads
Diesel Injection Pump Timing Device threads

OM616/617 Injection Pump.
How to adjust the Naturally Aspirated Injection Pump.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/99944-om616-617-injection-pump.html#post678986

'75 240 D M-style IP Theory - Help!
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/82731-75-240-d-m-style-ip-theory-help.html#post532895

Fuel injection pump diagrams???
Fuel injection pump diagrams???

IP Timing
IP Timing

Setting timing with IP lock tool.... Why won't the plunger set?
Setting timing with IP lock tool.... Why won't the plunger set?

Adjusting injection pump timing without setting cam timing
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/143442-adjusting-injection-pump-timing-without-setting-cam-timing.html#post1077248

Injector pump timing
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/168247-injector-pump-timing.html#post1310290

Diesel Timing Chain Link Thread
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=1251434

IP Destroying Injectors, GP, and Prechamber? [long]
IP Destroying Injectors, GP, and Prechamber? [long]

Fuel injection pump starvation with good a good lift pump
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/247039-fuel-injection-pump-starvation-good-lift-pump.html#post2133911

Fuel pressure relief valve adjustment
Fuel pressure relief valve adjustment

lift pump test
1979 300td -- Can anybody walk me through a lift pump test?

fuel pressure
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/249082-fuel-pressure.html#post2156755




.
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Prototype Vehicle build.
Prototype Fleet Durability
Prototype vehicle instrumentation.
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1973 300D
1973 309D - stolen
1978 280SE
1980 240D
1983 300D
1984 190D

Last edited by whunter; 01-22-2012 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Repaired dead link
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  #13  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3
All I can say is WOW - and thanks. I just opened this & haven't had a chance to read all you sent, but briefing thru it seems to cover a whole ton of bases.

1. As for the glows, I had them done by a mechanic in NJ that told me he "scoped" them & they looked spotless.
2. If you know of someone in the St. Pete - Ft. Myers area, that'd be great. Gainesville is quite a haul to see a mechanic.
3. There is definately something in the fuel system as I've had to install 4 - 6 of the plastic filters in 15k miles. I'm on my 2nd spin-on. They clog w/ something very dark or black, though it seems to be improving. I running 1000+ miles a week so the flushing of the system is being cared for.

Is there a "Bentley Manual" for MB like I get for the old Beemers? They are like a Bible for my e28's. I haven't seen one other than one that covers a whole ton of MB models.

Thanks again
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  #14  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,038
You are new here so you have no way to know how lucky a deal it is to just be in the same state as S. Brotherton....
You should do Whatever it takes to get your car to him and thank your lucky stars you are close enough to be able to manage that..
You will not believe me... I know that.. but later when the bigger picture dawns on you.. at least you will know I tried...

to see " a mechanic ".... that sentence shows that you have not researched this enough... and Whunter would not steer you wrong either... Really think about it....
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  #15  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:11 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,347
Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by holgatelbi View Post
All I can say is WOW - and thanks. I just opened this & haven't had a chance to read all you sent, but briefing thru it seems to cover a whole ton of bases.

1. As for the glows, I had them done by a mechanic in NJ that told me he "scoped" them & they looked spotless.
2. If you know of someone in the St. Pete - Ft. Myers area, that'd be great. Gainesville is quite a haul to see a mechanic.
3. There is definately something in the fuel system as I've had to install 4 - 6 of the plastic filters in 15k miles. I'm on my 2nd spin-on. They clog w/ something very dark or black, though it seems to be improving. I running 1000+ miles a week so the flushing of the system is being cared for.

Is there a "Bentley Manual" for MB like I get for the old Beemers? They are like a Bible for my e28's. I haven't seen one other than one that covers a whole ton of MB models.

Thanks again
Start with this issue, and a good supply of filters + tools to change them on the road..

Biobor, what is it, why do I need it??? This KILLS the growth...
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=723857

Algae Clogged Filter Pic StarTron WORKS! This cleans/breaks up the dead slime...
Algae Clogged Filter Pic StarTron WORKS !

Filters, Fungus, Biocide, etc.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=823378

Algae/Fungus fixation...
Algae/Fungus fixation...





Mercedes-Benz Diesel 123 Series Haynes Repair Manual covering all 200D, 220D, 240D, 240TD, 300D, 300CD, 300TD models, designated W123 Series 4-cyl & 5-cyl including turbo-diesel (1976 thru 1985)
http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/277
http://www.google.com/search?q=Haynes+Repair+Manual&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=#q=240d+repair+manual&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=SmgfTrTVJs-LsALHi5HgAw&sqi=2&ved=0CH0QrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=676e35364e0f8638&biw=1280&bih=863

http://mercury.books4cars.com/listings.php?findmake=Mercedes&model=240D &year=1981&type=Shop

http://www.diyautomanuals.com/repair-manuals/Mercedes-Benz-240D-Repair-Manual.html
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