Guys, what about excessive carbon buildup in the prechambers, or damaged prechamber ball?

I am suggesting this, both as a question and a suggestion, because it is the only thing that I have not eliminated on my 82 300d. The car runs roughly for a few seconds after starting, but smooths out and runs great after that. Valve adjustment is good, compression good, new nozzles, glow plugs good, new hand primer pump, no leaks.

I will be curious as to the resolution to this little annoying problem as I have been living with it for some time.

I wouldn't worry too much about it to be honest. You have already done all the basic things to get running good (diesel purge, valve adjustment, filters, etc.). Almost every diesel I have driven/checked out has a combination of shakes, rattles, noises and smoke. Obviously, some have these symptoms more than others.

Doing a compression test is not too hard. There should be some old threads on doing it. You can have your indy do it also. If the car has low compression, then starting it in the cold will be hard or impossible(lower than 30 degrees), it might smoke or it burns a bit of oil, maybe even shake a bit. If your car starts when it is at 20-30 degrees out, then your car probably has good compression.

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1983 300 Turbo-"Nora"
1983 240D Auto "Lucia"-slowest on earth-1st love
1985 300 Turbo-Blue Goose-slowly plucking parts

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ly15/mbsig.jpg

Replacing the Fuel Inlet hose with a longer one so that you can put it into a seperate container raised up in the air or not is a good idea.
It will bypass everthing to ther rear of that and elimnate that area as a source of the problem.
Also even though rubber hoses were changed the tightness of the Hose Clamps might be rechecked.
And, did the hose replacement include the hoses at the bottom of the Fuel Tank?

Also ounce you get the Car started have someone pump on the hand primer while it is at idle and see if it smooths out.
If it does it could indicate that air leak or another problem in the Fuel Supply System from the Lift Pump to the Overflow Valve.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

I wish more people understood this concept. Give it the kiss method (keep it simple, stupid)

I can't say how often I have run into people who go for the comlicated problem first and after spending hours then they finally get to the simple solution and it works.

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1983 300SD
200000miles

i wish. i'll follow that advice if you give me your phone number so i can call you up this winter at 5:30 am when i start my car to go to work and nothing happens and ask, "what next?"

so, i think i'll order the primer pump to replace, check my hose clamps (even though i'm a notorious over tightener), and in the mean time i'll prime the car in the AM before i start it to see if it fixes the issue. after that, it looks like a compression test for me as well as glow plug and wire check too.

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1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)

Have you established with a gauge installed just before the injection pump. That reasonable fuel pressure to operate properly is present? Lift pumps get tired with time and use and relief valves although less likely to fail do so. The input valve of the lift pump also functions as a reverse check valve I would think.

Many have reported the seat of this valve needed cleaning up when they rebuilt their lift pumps. It is just my opinion and nothing more at this time. You had better have a really tight system beyond that valve to prevent leakback towards the fuel tank when the car is sitting around. Again in theory if everything is sealed and entrance valve of the lift pump is closed or sealing properly you almost have residual fuel pressure sitting in the system as you start to crank.

Another simpler test that indicates that fuel supply pressure is present in reasonable amounts. Remove the return line at injection pump. With engine running especially at idle as injectors do not need much fuel the relief valve should be sending some excess fuel back to the tank as it was designed to do.

If pressure is substandard the relief valve output will be zero. If no output get a gauge installed and return your system to normal. Low fuel pressure effects many things.

Problems can also be caused by a defective relief valve as well so some caution and thought must be exercised when in this area. I also feel if a car is getting high normal fuel milage this area is probably okay. Sub standard fuel milage or idle problems etc. means this area should be examined anyways in my opinion. Basically still a very cheap area to work in if required.

Not to scare you. But a possibility. The other reason why I stated a blown head gasket is because you stated in your other thread that there is still pressure in your system even after sitting for 18 hours,

coupled with white smoke at startup - Classic blown head gasket symptoms. Hopefully that's not the case.




I agree the primer pump should be changed out. If it leaks, it will get air in the system very easily after sitting. Hence, rough start.

As far as timing stretch, IP timing and popping injectors. That should be down anyways with the mileage you have. It may very well help it. But as Brian stated, it might not.



.

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1983 123.133 California
- GreaseCar Veg System

so, i decided to take a step back and look at some of the smaller things first. of course, with my lack of patience thing, i went ahead and bought a set of monark injectors before doing anything....so if that's not the problem, it's still getting new injectors . and primer pump too...

i took a volt meter and the write up on diesel giant about glow plugs out to my car and started testing away.

i did this BECAUSE, i decided one morning to glow the hell out of the car before starting it. i waited 20 seconds after the glow light went out, and then did that two more times, for a total of 3 extra long glow cycles. i started the car and TA-DA! it started without any problems.... and i've confirmed this with a couple more very cold morning starts with extra long glowing, and no rough starts...

so, back to the volt meter. i tested each pin, i tested the main wire coming in, i tested the strip fuse, and i tested each hole on the connector to the pins. all of them checked out perfectly. i didn't bother checking out the glow plugs because all 5 are brand new bosch plugs.

so my question is this: if all of those things in the glow plug relay check out fine, and my glow plugs are brand new, what have i not checked that could be the problem here? and how do you check that one last thing?

if it really comes down to the glow cycle, what part of that system could still be giving me trouble?

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1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)

Does this mean that you checked them with the Ohm Meter and they were OK?

Unfortunately Glow Plugs can come out of the box and be no good or be New and only last a few weeks. This happes less with quality Glow Plugs but it still happens.

After checking the Ohm reading the other test to be 100% sure the Glow Plugs are working (unfortunately) is to pull them all out and use your Jumper Cable to create a circuit to test your plugs to see if they indeed get redish yellow hot. The reason; some members have reported Glow Plugs passing the Ohm Meter test but when the tested the Glow Plugs direct to the battery they found that the all did not glow/get hot.

Concerning the Compression test. It is something that you can do in your driveway. The Compression Tester set from Harbor Freight is $35 or less (do not know the exact price).
When you remove your Injectors to install the new ones look inside the precombustin chamber at the Ball Pins to see if they are intact and not burned up.
If the rebuilt Injectors do not improve things what is left?
At this point your triple glowing showed that it is something going on in the combustion chamber that is not heating the fuel up enough for your Engine start. Could be time for the compression test.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

yes.

what are those?

I also just realized in reading this over that i did not check the wires connected to the plugs themselves. i guess i could run that test too while i test those plugs individually. what a pain....

seems like i should just do that compression test when i do those injectors anyway, good idea.

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1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)

The three glow plug cycles prove the fuel is present since it starts right up. The next step I would think is to monitor the length of time your glow plugs actualy stay on in the first cycle.

This is done by clipping onto a glow plug to ground with your meter set to read about 11 volts dc. Then timing exactly how long the cycle really is. You may have far to short of an actual glow circuit cycle. I would think you would also want to see at least 10 volts or more as well.

so, i'm still glowing for three full cycles. glowing until the relay clicks off, not the glow light. this morning i did my usual three and it started rough anyway . it's getting colder and i'm getting more concerned about this problem.

a friend suggested replacing the starter as the whole glow system checks out fine. the thing runs like a dream thirty seconds after it starts and beyond. no problems starting when warm either. i can drive the 15 minutes to work, park and stop the car, and then start it again without any issues.

i've got the injector nozzles still but i'm waiting for the resources to get injectors to rebuild with them.

the only thing i haven't done yet is hook the gp's up to the battery with jumper cables and actually watch them heat up. i'm skeptical about this as the problem started before the new glow plugs and the glow plugs are new. i'll do it, but i don't think that's the problem.

i'm on the fence: starter or injectors? the car only has 152K miles on it, how bad can the compression really be? i lean towards the starter too because every once in awhile i got to start the car, glow it, and turn the key and nothing but a *click* happens. sometimes more than once. usually i have to pull the shifter down to D and back up to P and try starting it again. that sounds like starter or starter wiring issues to me...

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1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)

By the way, when were the valves adjusted last? If the valves are far enough out of adjustment you will lose enough compression to make starting difficult.

If you have to shift to get it to start, that sounds like a troublesome neutral safety switch (or shifter bushing). I've been having similar starting issues on my '87 300D, but haven't had any recently with the cooler temperatures. Good luck

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1982 240D, sold 9/17/2008
1987 300D TurboW124.133 - 603.960, 722.317 - Smoke Silver Metallic / Medium Red (702/177), acquired 8/15/2009
262,715 and counting

Based on your original description, this really doesn't sound like a starter issue. It sounds like the engine is turning over fine (starter is engaging the flywheel), it's just that the actual start up is rough.

The two things you need to do at this point are: (1) verify that your plugs are glowing as they should be (you made some progress in that area, but if you wanted to be sure you could pull them and test according to the instruction in Diesel Giant thread) and (2) do a compression check.

I think you have got yourself to the point where you really need to figure out what those compression numbers are before you invest in any other possible fixes. You can replace lots of things, but you won't be doing yourself any good if you just don't have the compression you need.

If I were you I would buy the diesel compression gauge, read up on the threads here about how to do the test and then report back with your findings. Good luck!

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'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
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"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman