240d more clutch problems

[spdrun]

In June 2011, I had the clutch pedal drop to the floor. I took the car to United Auto Repair on East 83rd St., NYC, and they replaced the master and slave (close to $500 p&l). I had to take it back immediately after for them to bleed the system correctly since I was getting a grind going into reverse. January of this year, the pedal went soft and I took it back to them. They replaced the master cylinder pro bono. A few months later, I'm again getting a grind going into reverse and nasty shifting in general. Pumping the clutch pedal a few times generally gets rid of the problem for a while. I've had it back to them to re-bleed the system and adjust free play -- to no avail.

I'm not visibly losing any clutch fluid, so I don't think it's a leak unless it's very small. What should be the next step in troubleshooting this irritating thing?

I feel like I've given them ample opportunity to fix this correctly, and I'm ready to try something else.

[Stretch]

It does sound like an air issue if after a few pumps on the clutch pedal the symptoms go away.

Have you tried to bleed the system yourself? If a job's got to be done properly you've got to do it yourself!

[spdrun]

Haven't yet. What is the best way to bleed it (OK, this question may start a holy war). I've heard that black magic and voodoo were involved in the process:
(1) From the slave cylinder "up" by connecting a hose to a brake bleeder and pumping the brake?
(2) From the slave cylinder "up" using a pressure bleeder?
(3) From the master "down" using a pressure bleeder on the reservoir cap?
(4) From the master "down" using a speed bleeder on the clutch slave nipp?

Also, should I remove all connections and teflon tape them to preclude air entering the system afterward?
Should I replace the hard-line between the master and slave to be safe -- maybe a pin hole leak is sucking air in there?

[t walgamuth]

the symptom of curing the problem by pumping up the pedal also is indicative of an internal leak in the clutch master.

[spdrun]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

the symptom of curing the problem by pumping up the pedal also is indicative of an internal leak in the clutch master.

Which was supposedly "replaced" by the clowns at the shop less than 3 months ago. Do you think that I'd lose two masters in a year's time?!?

Really tempted to tear everything out (master, slave, and connecting hose), start from scratch, bleed the #### out of the system and hope for the best.

PS - where can I obtain a new clutch line? I can't find any on the usual parts sites online.

[junqueyardjim]

Spudrun, you do know that the reservoir on the firewall serves both clutch and brake, but the clutch portion is the very back part and it is behind a divider in the reservoir. When filling make sure that the rear portion for the clutch has it's part filled or you will be pumping air. In other words, with the clutch it is very important to fill the reservoir to the very top.

[spdrun]

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Spudrun, you do know that the reservoir on the firewall serves both clutch and brake, but the clutch portion is the very back part and it is behind a divider in the reservoir. When filling make sure that the rear portion for the clutch has it's part filled or you will be pumping air. In other words, with the clutch it is very important to fill the reservoir to the very top.

Yep - I do know and there's full fluid in both portions. Fluid level isn't the issue (wish it was!).

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by spdrun

Which was supposedly "replaced" by the clowns at the shop less than 3 months ago. Do you think that I'd lose two masters in a year's time?!?

Really tempted to tear everything out (master, slave, and connecting hose), start from scratch, bleed the #### out of the system and hope for the best.

PS - where can I obtain a new clutch line? I can't find any on the usual parts sites online.

It does make me wonder too. Always ask for your old parts when getting things fixed.

[barry123400]

Have a look and see if the master and slave look like new replacement parts. Plus the brand name on them if any.

I got a free new clutch master from somebody at one time. It looked really cheaply made overall. I forget the name though.

I took our toyota echo car in for the yearly safety some years ago. Was told It needed new rubber bushings in the lower a arms. Not available separatly but they would replace the arms for only 1200.00 plus tax. Declined their kind offer and went home. Ebay complete new a arm was fifty dollars each. Ordered two. Rubber bushings where also available for even less. Took me about two hours to change both of them out.

Now that auto service shop owner is spending a million dollars across the street from us. New house and major storage shed plus other improvements on 38 acres. He is paying cash so I wonder where the money came from as If I did not know. Every sucker that walked through his doors probably got the same basic treatment as me. I have little doubt I would have gotten the aftermarket a frames installed from him charging full price or more for toyota originals.

I think he has sold his service business and retired.. He must be approaching 35-40. Local dealer service is not much different either. Rip the hell out of anyone they can as a right of passage. Forget the oil changes even. They are now part of a vehicle check for over a hundred dollars.No just oil changes alone available. Even if the car is new and under warranty. Three quarts of oil and a filter basically. If they find anything else it is extra. What are you going to find on a six month old car? I have finally arrived at the conclusion some people just like to be abused. It must make them feel better. That or they know nothing about mechanical things and as soon as this is noticed they are gouged.

Except for the manditory safety checks my cars never see the inside of repair shops anymore. Every last one of them locally are copying each others practices.

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by spdrun

Haven't yet. What is the best way to bleed it (OK, this question may start a holy war). I've heard that black magic and voodoo were involved in the process:
(1) From the slave cylinder "up" by connecting a hose to a brake bleeder and pumping the brake?
(2) From the slave cylinder "up" using a pressure bleeder?
(3) From the master "down" using a pressure bleeder on the reservoir cap?
(4) From the master "down" using a speed bleeder on the clutch slave nipp?

Also, should I remove all connections and teflon tape them to preclude air entering the system afterward?
Should I replace the hard-line between the master and slave to be safe -- maybe a pin hole leak is sucking air in there?

Always "from the bottom up" option (5) is now my new favorite way. The pump oil can, forget the pressure bleeder. The brake slave is fine but with the oil can you only have one hose to attach. You better learn to do this yourself, i think those guys dont know what they are doing.
I doubt you need a new line.

[spdrun]

^^^

The owner of the shop actually seems like a decent guy and really did try to be helpful -- I just don't think that he's seen any manual 240d's nor knows what to do with that particular can of hydraulic worms.

To be clear, there was a charge for the initial work, but not a dime for any of the follow-ups, so I don't think he's deliberately trying to play me. He seems as flabbergasted as I am with the stupid thing.

[atomix8]

spdrun,
Welcome to the hair-pulling club of MB clutch bleeding. With help from many posts here, I've probably got 15 hours invested in club membership dues.

Sounds like they actually got it to bleed right for at least a period of time, so air is getting in somewhere. Getting air in is unfortunately a leak somewhere in the circuit (slave, master, hardline between them, or maybe the soft line from the reservoir). Take a quick look under your driver's kick panel (you may not need to remove it to see) to check that your master is actually new AND dry everywhere. Then climb under the passenger side...actually, you can probably see it from the engine bay, and find the slave cylinder on the side of the tranny. There is a hardline that crosses over the top of the tranny, with a few connections that could probably go bad. BGKast had that happen to him, see link below.

83' 240D clutch just went out! slave cylinder?

My nightmare was I couldn't bleed the system, from above, from below, unless I backed out bolts on the the master and the slave several turns. Master was a crappy local part. Slave I actually bought here. Of course the slave failed 200 miles after the new master went in (you've already done the smart thing and replaced both at once) I must have soaked a quart of brake fluid into my clothes, my face and my driveway that winter...Good luck, ask questions.

[spdrun]

OK, it's leaking from the base of slave cylinder. This is actually a good thing, since I know where the leak is coming from. Really hope that the replacement part that he installs will do better

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by spdrun

OK, it's leaking from the base of slave cylinder. This is actually a good thing, since I know where the leak is coming from. Really hope that the replacement part that he installs will do better

Its always good to to pin point the problem, it was leaking underneath the car then?

[charmalu]

Here is a You Tube video on what Stevo mentioned about using a oil can and bleeding from the bottom up. this is a very good demonstration oh how to do it.

BMW, VW, Porsche Clutch Bleeding - YouTube



Charlie