OM617 in W124 - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

pawoSD · #31 09-25-2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

I always like the comments on comparing the 617 to the 603, ... from those who haven't had a 603.

The 603 is a great engine, even if it sounds more like a car than a cement-mixer.

But have you ever had a 617 powered vehicle for an extended amount of time?

The 603 is too fragile for my liking.

The valve adjustment thing is not even an issue, it takes about 30 minutes once every year if you drive ton, or every two years if you don't.

In the end, the 603 is most likely going to cost more to maintain in the long run.

sixto · #32 09-25-2010, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

In the end, the 603 is most likely going to cost more to maintain in the long run.

Yes, that sixth glow plug adds up

Sixto
87 300D

vstech · #33 09-26-2010, 12:06 AM

While I've only JUST gotten my 603 wagon and sedan, I am TOTALLY amazed at the differences of the two motors. power is nice, but it's not the biggest change for me, it's the smooth idle, the total lack of any vibrations, even on my aldaectamyed sedan. all the aluminum is cool too! I'm in the process of totally covering all bases on both of my cars, getting everything that can fail replaced, and clean everything else, where on the 617 powered cars, I just did maintenance, and drove the things.
no fear of a set of bearings dumping into the chain on the 617, no fear of cooling system impedance blowing a gasket in the 617 head. no issues changing that set of glow plugs. just reach in and change them.
I DREAD going under the intake and attempting changing the plugs on my 603's... matter of fact, I think I will order a set of gaskets, and just pull the intake, and crossover tube and change all the plugs while I'm in there!
so I TOTALLY see where you are coming from on the 617 vs. the 603...
still. I'm stoked to have TWO 603 vehicles!

sixto · #34 09-26-2010, 12:10 AM

I haven't tried in the 87 300D but in the 87 SDL it wasn't too difficult to replace the glow plugs from below the manifold with only the cruise actuator removed.

Sixto
87 300D

Gillig · #35 09-26-2010, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

The cross flow head which allows larger ports and maybe larger valves is the big difference.

The 6th cylinder is the primary increase in power. It means less volume for air to fill and another pair of valves for it to flow through.

sixto · #36 09-26-2010, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillig

The 6th cylinder is the primary increase in power. It means less volume for air to fill and another pair of valves for it to flow through.

I don't know enough to disagree but the OM602 about matches the performance of the OM617 with 83% of the displacement.

Sixto
87 300D

pawoSD · #37 09-26-2010, 02:16 AM

A properly running 617 with good motor mounts produces virtually no vibration at idle. Mine runs extremely smooth, I've not replaced my motor mounts or air cleaner mounts in at least 5-6 years and they are still all in good shape.....and that is after about 70k of driving.

sixto · #38 09-26-2010, 02:26 AM

There's also the question of whether the cost and effort to get a 617 into a 124 wagon offsets the projected [by some] increase in cost and effort in maintaining a 603 over a 617. I can see taking on the project for heck of it. I can also see the opportunity to become familiar with something new.

Sixto
87 300D

jt20 · #39 09-26-2010, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillig

The 6th cylinder is the primary increase in power. It means less volume for air to fill and another pair of valves for it to flow through.

you mean, less air flow per volume of fuel because the same amount of air passes 6 pairs of valves in the same amount of time allowing a better air / fuel mixture.

you said it backwards...
less stroke (ie.. mechanical work) for more dynamical work, while the trade-off is more moving parts. But balanced pairs.

t walgamuth · #40 09-26-2010, 05:50 AM

This is a swap that would interest me. I have had a couple of six o threes and find them very fragile compared to the lovely durable six seventeen. I think the six seventeeen will fit physically and the weight I believe is also very comparable. The twin cam head is very bulky compared to the single cam head.

I have seen pics of one here a few years back.

layback40 · #41 09-26-2010, 05:51 AM

I think we are developing a 60x v/s 617 thread !!

joeblack · #42 09-26-2010, 10:37 AM

Thank you all for helping out,

How much do you think I can slant the 617 tranny assembly. I would think that I would bring the turbo further down.

It was not my intention to have a 617 versus 603 thread. It is nice to have a more modern engine but every time I look in my powerstroke Van versus my 1994 pre powerstroke Van I feel less overwhelmed. I think having less clutter under the hood and being able to see the ground would be nice in a w124.

How effective are the sound / heat insulation in the w124. Anyone has removed these and how much is the difference ?
Are there any images from the couple of elusive swaps around. Did they use the original W124 tranny with an adapter plate or the 617 tranny?

Later J

babymog · #43 09-26-2010, 12:01 PM

Paul: I've never had a 617. Had friends and neighbors with them back in the '80s, thought that they sounded unrefined, and even the crappy '70s GM diesel cars would outrun them (the V-6 was actually a decent performer). Not trying to bash 61x engines, but the 60x is the reason I came back to Mercedes ownership, it did three things that its predecessor didn't: it could out-run a stock VW beetle, it sounded like a German car instead of an American pick-up, and it got reasonable fuel mileage. You run straight-pipes, it is apparent that quiet isn't one of your priorities.

My beef is not with the 617, a great engine in its day, but with the people like you who tend to pipe up on every 617 vs 60x thread about how "fragile" the 60x is or how the 61x is a more durable engine, `or how it is more expensive to own/drive a 60x, ... when you have no experience on which to base this comment! Now there are several people here who have had both, and almost unversally prefer to own and drive the later versions. More people who I know who have transitioned from the 61x through the 602/3 to the 606, and then to the later CDI cars, and none of them look back and say they want their old 123 or 61x-powered 126 back for a daily driver. The SD is a great car, but the SDL is every bit of the same car with more power and a quieter engine.

Fragility? There are plenty of people here with 603s that have never been opened, I've had 4 myself with original heads at over 250,000 miles, original vacuum-pumps also, and there are just as many people here who have lost a 61x to bottom-end failures, one or two cracked 61x heads from oveheating, IPs that fail, timing pumps and chains that fail, there isn't enough difference in real durability between them to see daylight. Yes the 61x will last hundreds of thousands if properly maintained, as will the 603, give it a rest I say.

babymog · #44 09-26-2010, 12:13 PM

Joe:

I don't know about slanting the 61x, oil pick-up will probably be the biggest concern there until you get into oil return paths.

As far as the choice between the 617 and the 603, I think that you should do your research into the 603 before you waste your time with the swap. The 603 is basically the same design, basically the same IP, the same injectors, self-bleeding injection helps with fuel changes, the parallel glow-plugs are better for cold starts, not a whole lot of differences as far as fuel choices. The big difference between the engines is as Sixto mentioned, the cross-flow head and pre-chamber swirl being more efficient as to create less noise and more power from your fuel = better MPG. If you're looking into high power outputs you might consider a later design head as the early one is the only known weak point where it doesn't endure neglect nor abuse well, but as many of our members will (and do) attest; even the original head is often good for 250,000, 350,000, 400,000 and more miles if treated properly in many cases.

My suggestion is to find a 603 (or 602 if you want better fuel efficiency) for your car and install it, save the fabricating for your alternative fuel habits. You will enjoy the same Bosch mechanical pump design and substantially the same pre-chamber design as you are used to, and without the belly pan you can still see the ground.

joeblack · #45 09-26-2010, 08:58 PM

Babymog,
I am starting to lean over, and go with the 603.
Do not disagree with your arguments.
Just me being unfamiliar with the 603 was probably my main hangup.

I will continue with the original 603 setup.

Thank you all again .
Later J