Top 3-5 cost efficient ways to decrease body roll? - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #**106** 01-14-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

SPRING DESIGN
http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/design.html

RESOURCES AND LINKS
http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/resources.html

.

This is from Roy's first source:

If it's, let's say, a skosh too strong, then you can a) go to a lighter wire, b) open up the coil diameter, or c) increase the number of active coils to get a slightly weaker spring

So if you reduce the number of coils you will stiffen it.

leathermang · #**107** 01-14-2011, 10:32 PM

Tom, would you tell me how one ' increases the number of active coils ' ?

leathermang · #**108** 01-14-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I still disagree. Moon161, who posted formulas disagrees too. My basis is from conventional wisdom heard from many sources, and a limited understanding of springs.

LOL, " conventional wisdom " .. the same as urban myths in lots of cases..

the fact is that Moon161's MATH showed what I was claiming...
look at it closely....

English Bulldog · #**109** 01-14-2011, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDBSO

Good article here double up sway bars article

I purchased my sway bars from a wrecker for about $50 for both front and rear sway bars. Bushings are extra.

Too cold and too much snow to play with doubling up before spring.

The front end result should look something like this.

another full thread

is this an add on or do you have to take every off to get to it.

English Bulldog · #**110** 01-14-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBeige

Even the AMG tuned 500CE had some body roll

how many of these are there? anybody got one.

Not much body roll though. How they do it? special sway bars???

this car is lowered about 2 1/2 inches or even 2.75 from w123 stock.

wheels 235 16s ?????

Are two tone wheels are stupid?

EDBSO · #**111** 01-15-2011, 01:45 AM

English Bulldog, I will likely take the front off to completely inspect everything and replace the bushings and end links. I have all the new parts just waiting on the weather. On my '99 E300 the front bar can probably be removed in 20 minutes. One has to remove the under trays and the 4 bolts that hold the bushings on and the end links. The bar then simply drops straight down. The rear may require loosening the sub frame so I will likely try and work the second bar in with a bit of the ends sawed off.

Frankly I am willing to try the upgrade because it costs so little compared to a new or H&R sway bars front and rear. I expect to get 90% of the result for 15% of the cost. Numbers I like, plus I get to tinker!

Reasonably simple shaped sway bars

winmutt · #**112** 01-15-2011, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English Bulldog

how many of these are there? anybody got one.

Not much body roll though. How they do it? special sway bars???

this car is lowered about 2 1/2 inches or even 2.75 from w123 stock.

wheels 235 16s ?????

Are two tone wheels are stupid?

I can only imagine that the swaybars were part of the package. This pic isnt 100% perfect as the springs are misplaced. Mine has a similar amount of body roll as the 500ce.

Pics from my sway bar swap. I guess you have to totally remove the brake booster.
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/benz/w123%20td%2026mm%20front%20swaybar/

Pics from my spring swap :
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/benz/w123%20vogtland%20springs%20before%20and%20after/

OEM progressive rates, I had these on my euro 300D and they really did wonders for the back end. Wish I had kept them when I realized the vogtlands were whack in the back.:
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/benz/w123%20maintentance/w123%20rear%20suspension/w123%20progressive%20rate%20rear%20coupe%20springs.jpg

Blue print of the rear (so you know what your working with):

PS one of my favorite w123 of all time :

I dont dig 2 tone often, but that is hot.

t walgamuth · #**113** 01-15-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

LOL, " conventional wisdom " .. the same as urban myths in lots of cases..

the fact is that Moon161's MATH showed what I was claiming...
look at it closely....

His math shows my point. If you won't take the word of an engineer using a formula I give up!

whunter · #**114** 01-15-2011, 02:20 PM

If you want a harder (kidney/back pounding) ride = cut the springs.

Note:
This always changes the chassis geometry = frequently beyond the ability to align/adjust with factory components + exceeding engineered stress limits of the Unibody structure, suspension joints/bushings = drastic reduction of vehicle and parts durability/life.

IMO this is never a good idea/option, unless it is a dedicated drifter, rally or track car.

vstech · #**115** 01-15-2011, 05:14 PM

I'll go back to EB's original question, and modify it a smidge...

are you trying to get your car to corner totally flat? are you looking to improve the vehicle back to factory specs, or are you looking for simple adjustments that will improve the cornering ability of the car?

my first response was towards getting the car to corner better than it's nearly 30 year old rubber is providing.
fix what's there first in my opinion.
see how you like it with new body/subframe bushings.including new antisway bar bushings.
see how you like it...
then move on to additional mods
MB designed a pretty cool car. all improvements beyond repairing to stock will have consequences.

English Bulldog · #**116** 01-15-2011, 08:32 PM

This car is very aesthetic. the goal is to have the most aesthetic car as possible, decreasing what has been eliminated in recent mercedes that is excess roll with giving up the least amount of ride comfort.

A concourse car may be more technically correct or period correct, but this two tone is attractive also.

are you trying to get your car to corner totally flat? No not a racer. are you looking to improve the vehicle back to factory specs, Factory specs have a 3 inch front tire gap that i dont like. or are you looking for simple adjustments that will improve the cornering ability of the car? yes. looks minimizing loss of function.

So what bushings to change ranked in order of decreasing roll the most.
I am already installing new shocks and shocks bushings and the KMAC is the lower rear arm bushing i think.

1. $
2. $
3. $

moon161 · #**117** 01-15-2011, 08:44 PM

LM:
Simple experiments have been a tool of important skeptics, from Thomas onward.

Try this:
3 identical bungee cords 1 foot or so long, an appropriate weight, tape measure, hook to hang things from or maybe the top of a door. While not useful as a compression spring, bungee cords work as an extension spring, and should convey the point.

1.
a. Hang 1 cord, put enough weight on it to stretch it in the most linear range, say by 25-50%. Maybe a gallon or 2 of milk or water. Note the extension (change in length) and force (the weight of what you hung on it, 8lb/gallon for water).
b. The spring constant K1 is the ratio of force/extension.

2.
a.Add a second cord, so it hangs from the first, and hang the weight from the second. You should have Ceiling, cord 1, cord 2, weight.
b. Note that if you lift the first cord off the hook or lift the second cord so that it lifts off the hook of the first, the weight is the same, if you neglect the small

weight of the bungee cords.
c. Record the extension of the endpoints of the first and second bungee cords. Do they both increase by the same length? Compare to 1a.
d. Note the extension of the combination of both cords, or how much the lower end or cord 2 moves.
e. The spring constant of the combination = weight/total extension. Theory says that 1/k = 1/k1 + 1/k2

3. Add a third, repeat as above.

English Bulldog · #**118** 01-15-2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

If you want a harder (kidney/back pounding) ride = cut the springs.

i am open to real life experience in this type of cut commentary.

Anybody who cut springs like in the two tone picture like to comment on how the ride is?

Anybody who didn't ever cut w123 springs like in the picture like to comment but please declare it is educated speculation and opinion.

More credibility to those with bilstein heavy duty and cut springs is fair right.

(If anybody comments, then they didn't die of kidney failure.

)

winmutt · #**119** 01-15-2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

Note:
This always changes the chassis geometry = frequently beyond the ability to align/adjust with factory components + exceeding engineered stress limits of the Unibody structure, suspension joints/bushings = drastic reduction of vehicle and parts durability/life.

This sounds more like a legal disclaimer. I fail to see how adjusting the starting point in the normal geometery can exceed engineered stress limits etc etc etc.

leathermang · #**120** 01-16-2011, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

If you want a harder (kidney/back pounding) ride = cut the springs.
Note:
This always changes the chassis geometry = frequently beyond the ability to align/adjust with factory components + exceeding engineered stress limits of the Unibody structure, suspension joints/bushings = drastic reduction of vehicle and parts durability/life.
IMO this is never a good idea/option, unless it is a dedicated ......

I totally agree. If a person would read all the FSM CHASSIS Manuals for these cars... there are two of them for the 123's... they would appreciate better how much effort went into making these cars ride the way they do.... and last doing it... It also has the chart for the number of wire sizes MB made available for these cars ... including stiffer ones for ' bad road countries'... a simple PROPER way to increase ride stiffness and lessen role which could be matched to other heavy duty gear made designed to work together....