Anyone know anything about the Perkins P4C diesel? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

KarTek · #16 03-08-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle

It would help if you could explain to us why you are interested and what info you are looking for.

Never heard of ‘P4C’. The ‘P’ series, P3, P4 and P6 were Perkins original ‘bread and butter’ line.

Just as a bit of background….I joined F.Perkins Ltd (as it was then) on a 5 year apprenticeship back in 1955 and left 9 years later to start my own business. The engine was at that time still in Prototype and Development stages and was known as the “Four 99” (99in³) . Later in early production run as “C99”, then “4-107” and “4-108” as it was up-rated. Many variations – DI and IDI, wet and dry liners, Turbo and NA etc. Originally conceived as a high-speed diesel engine for cars, taxis and light commercial vehicles it eventually had numerous applications Marine and Industrial.

My own dealings with the 4-99 were mainly as an apprentice in the R and D Test Shop and later in the Field Test Eng. Dept. This engine was, along with the 6-354 engine, the first Diesel to employ a distributor type ‘V’ fuel injection pump. This presented many problems, pump and RPM, and we worked very closely with Simms as the pump too was still under development. I recall spending many hours driving a Cortina, fitted with a 4-99, around the Motor Industries Test Track – not very exiting!

That's cool, love hearing stories like this!

strelnik · #17 03-08-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle

It would help if you could explain to us why you are interested and what info you are looking for.

Never heard of ‘P4C’. The ‘P’ series, P3, P4 and P6 were Perkins original ‘bread and butter’ line.

!

I am looking at buying a 1946-1949 DeSoto of a type called a Suburban, which has 3 seats and is an extra 18" long on the wheelbase. The 6cyl engine which drove it stock in this country wasn't strong enough to do the job, but the Perkins P4C, which was used in Europe in the export model, was considered very solid and dependable, plus got better mileage.

I just need to know:

where to get a Perkins P4C
what type of clutch+gearbox hooked up to that engine

and I can replicate the car used in Europe.

I'd have to add a vacuum pump to power the disc brakes I'm adding but not a big deal.

I'd rather make it a diesel of the type used with it, than install a more modern Chrysler engine.

Hence my inquiries.

All assistance appreciated.

I'm thinking this version would also be called a 4-99, the question is: whether the 4-107/108 is the same block, just bored out, or not.

layback40 · #18 03-08-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

I am looking at buying a 1946-1949 DeSoto of a type called a Suburban, which has 3 seats and is an extra 18" long on the wheelbase. The 6cyl engine which drove it stock in this country wasn't strong enough to do the job, but the Perkins P4C, which was used in Europe in the export model, was considered very solid and dependable, plus got better mileage.

I just need to know:

where to get a Perkins P4C
what type of clutch+gearbox hooked up to that engine

and I can replicate the car used in Europe.

I'd have to add a vacuum pump to power the disc brakes I'm adding but not a big deal.

I'd rather make it a diesel of the type used with it, than install a more modern Chrysler engine.

Hence my inquiries.

All assistance appreciated.

I'm thinking this version would also be called a 4-99, the question is: whether the 4-107/108 is the same block, just bored out, or not.

This may sound a little stupid, to find a P4C probably an auto/marine museum or at least a historical group.
Perkins did a lot of changing sleeves to increase capacity. There is an example of this with a small 6 cylinder motor of theirs, it can be re-sleeved with 6/354 sleeves & nearly double its output.
Unless you are trying to make the car like original, i would go for a slightly later perkins motor, say out of a tractor, they are cheap & easy to rebuild.

Treeman · #19 03-08-2011, 07:28 PM

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/perkins.html

Beagle · #20 03-08-2011, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

I'm thinking this version would also be called a 4-99, the question is: whether the 4-107/108 is the same block, just bored out, or not.

No totally different engine. Sorry, my "way back machine" gets a little fuzzy after 50 years! The P4C was a higher rpm version of the 3.15L P4 developed for road vehicles. It red-lined at 3000rpm and I remember we shipped many to a company in Belgium that made conversion kits for all sorts of thirsty gassers.

PHP Code:


			
where to get a Perkins P4C

what type of clutch+gearbox hooked up to that engine

I'm afraid I can't help you on that one. The lower rated P4 (tractor, fork-lifts etc), I guess, would not be suitable but you are not planning to race it are you?

Just BTW: I see you have a Merc 180D. Perkins used one of these as a test bed for the 4-99 back then , it was a very easy conversion. When they were done I bought it from them and re-installed the original engine - the first car I owned

.

strelnik · #21 03-08-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle

No totally different engine. Sorry, my "way back machine" gets a little fuzzy after 50 years! The P4C was a higher rpm version of the 3.15L P4 developed for road vehicles. It red-lined at 3000rpm and I remember we shipped many to a company in Belgium that made conversion kits for all sorts of thirsty gassers.

PHP Code:


			
where to get a Perkins P4C
what type of clutch+gearbox hooked up to that engine

I'm afraid I can't help you on that one. The lower rated P4 (tractor, fork-lifts etc), I guess, would not be suitable but you are not planning to race it are you?

Just BTW: I see you have a Merc 180D. Perkins used one of these as a test bed for the 4-99 back then , it was a very easy conversion. When they were done I bought it from them and re-installed the original engine - the first car I owned

.

The company in Belgium is Hunter BV, who made the conversions I am seeking!
So again, what am I looking for? a 3.1 liter? what's the designation? Even at 3000 rpm I could drive around at 50 mph.

strelnik · #22 03-08-2011, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treeman

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/perkins.html

Thanks I know about this but have no details like: which tranny was used? In what othe rcars? etc.

t walgamuth · #23 03-08-2011, 10:21 PM

The desoto would have come with either some sort of an automatic or a three speed stick I imagine. I also imagine the taxis were all sticks in that era. This would probably be fine with a low reving diesel if a tall enough rear end is used. A four speed would offer more gearing options or a five speed but might run more to adapt everything.

Interesting idea.

OTOH a 617 turbo with a four speed would work pretty well too and I happen to have one in that 82 300cd I have for sale here.

strelnik · #24 03-09-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

The desoto would have come with either some sort of an automatic or a three speed stick I imagine. I also imagine the taxis were all sticks in that era. This would probably be fine with a low reving diesel if a tall enough rear end is used. A four speed would offer more gearing options or a five speed but might run more to adapt everything.

Interesting idea.

OTOH a 617 turbo with a four speed would work pretty well too and I happen to have one in that 82 300cd I have for sale here.

Thanks for the offer, I have thought of that but would prefer one that was closer to what was actually used.

layback40 · #25 03-09-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

Thanks for the offer, I have thought of that but would prefer one that was closer to what was actually used.

A 240 D maybe?

Beagle · #26 03-09-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

The company in Belgium is Hunter BV, who made the conversions I am seeking!
So again, what am I looking for? a 3.1 liter? what's the designation? Even at 3000 rpm I could drive around at 50 mph.

Since the only road vehicle applications of that era were 4-107, P3, P4, P6 and 6-354 and you're gonna need >3L, your choice is really made for you. The 4-107 at 1.7 L is clearly far too small for a car that size – it’s a tank

! Likewise the P3 at 2.4 L and that would sound dreadful in a car anyway! The last two are too big so you are left with the P4C. You would have no difficulty finding a P4 in a Massey Ferguson 65 BUT these are rated (and governed) at 2000 rpm as were most off-highway applications of the P4. I am not familiar with any post 1968 Perkins products.

The last of those P4C conversions must have been scrapped over 40 years ago unless you can find one forgotten in a barn somewhere. I agree with t walgamuth, drop in a 617 complete with a stick-shift. It would get lost under that hood!

lupin..the..3rd · #27 03-09-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarTek

That's cool, love hearing stories like this!

Haruko Haruhara. Nice.

daw_two · #28 03-09-2011, 04:43 PM

How about a more economical 3 cylinder Perkins? These things were used in Massey Ferguson tractors and small dozers, Case front end loaders and skid steers, Allis Chalmers tractors, Lincoln welders, Miller welders, and numerous gensets.

I'm working on an AD3.152 Perkins diesel --- it is my "current" diesel project. I should have it running in about 2 Saturdays. I just sourced a newer injection pump and 3 better injectors. It has a rebuilt starter on it and a brand new fuel filter head, filter, and bowl. Now if I can just get the darn air bled out of the injection pump.

Here are the engine specs I found:
http://www.ehow.com/list_7628703_perkins-ad3-engine-specs.html

Engine Specifications

The Perkins AD3-152 engine has a piston displacement of 152.7 cu-in, or 2,502 cu-cm. The engine has a bore by stroke of 3.6 by 5 inches with a large compression ratio of 17.4 to 1. The engine also features four main-bearings. The maximum power output of the engine is 37 horsepower. The firing order of the pistons is in the following order: one, two and three. The engine low idle rpm is 700, while the high idle rpm is 2,160. The injection pump is model CAV-DPA. Cylinder liners are plated with chrome.

Delivery is possible --- you know I have friends up your way.

panZZer · #29 03-09-2011, 05:22 PM

We got a 63 hp perkins in the shop from a street sweeper, Daw --how do you put an automotive throttle on your pump--the origonal is tractor like--meant to plow a field row--not stop n go?

daw_two · #30 03-09-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

We got a 63 hp perkins in the shop from a street sweeper, Daw --how do you put an automotive throttle on your pump--the origonal is tractor like--meant to plow a field row--not stop n go?

Actually, the original pump was setup for a welder\generator --- constant RPMs. It's very easy to adapt some pumps. I removed the "gadget" that had a voltage controlled adjuster connected to the throttle.

The newer pump came off of a tractor\dozer. A tractor and automotive application would be the same --- varying speeds! Just hook a throttle cable or accelerator cable to the throttle arm of the pump. You give it more throttle, it goes faster. Nothing else necessary if you have a manual shift transmission.

It's pretty easy to adapt some older diesels for automotive use.