HELP Major malfunction - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

bobodaclown · #16 03-26-2011, 01:12 PM

You're doing it right! Take your time. Account for all pieces. Take pictures. Thank you for keeping us updated.

Aquaticedge · #17 03-26-2011, 01:13 PM

if they are not in the pan then they are around in the engine, in oil passages, check your Pump pickup, there's a screen over it I think if its intact then the bearings should be in the pan, if not then they are around in the timing chain area somewhere most likely

04 Diesel · #18 03-26-2011, 01:26 PM

yep, try to find all metal with the magnet. Check pickup screen, before you start that motor I would turn it over by hand to make sure everything is good.

benmack1 · #19 03-26-2011, 05:04 PM

Update:

Enough for today, I've had it! I am up to 11 ball bearings now. I don't think I'm going to find number 12. I may have to just live dangerously. If 11 made it down to the pan, I am going to assume 12 did as well and I just can't find it. I've been in there for 4 hours off and on with various magnets. I have turned it over with a ratchet on the crank pulley and everything turns smoothly at least for now. I don't see any marks or problems with the parts of the chain I can see and the timer assembly looks great at least from the front by my untrained eye. The teeth seem OK by touch but again I don't have any reference either. They are regular and not torn up and the lobes look perfect, no wear or signs of irregularity or damage that I can see. I will get a new pump, reassemble next weekend and hope for the best I guess. Not real sure what else I can reasonably do at this point.

I have a bunch of pictures, I'll try to figure out how to upload and post later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for everyone's help so far. I am still all ears for thoughts and suggestions. Maybe some pics will help too.

benmack1 · #20 03-26-2011, 09:56 PM

Here are some pictures of what I have been trying to describe.

Here is the pump that came out. You can see the wear on the bearing housing on top as this pic is taken.

Another view.

I think this was an original part to the car. Date code is 92 (as in 1992), car is a 93 built in the summer of 92.

Part number of the pump.

Some pics of the timer lobes. The best I can get since there is a radiator in the way here.

Not sure if you can see this or not, but here is the crap I picked out of the oil pan from the side access panel.

I'll have an update when I get it back together, probably next weekend if I can get the parts by Friday.

Diesel911 · #21 03-26-2011, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmack1

Update:

It is definitely a VP failure. I pulled the pump this morning. Both bearings on each side of the roller that rides the timer lobes have let go. I don't think it is too bad at this point but I have some issues to think and work through.

The timer lobes look good. No marking or obvious destruction. I am a little surprised about that. It looks OK so I am thinking I don't need to pull that. Partly because I have no idea how the hell to get that thing out of there. Does the chain come off without some major tear down beyond pulling the pump????

I found one of the bearing centers laying just below the timer gear. Got that. I now have all the pieces for the bearing housing accounted for. One of the cast pieces that holds the bearings in place is beat to hell, but it looks like its warn down point being there are not chunks missing. So there is some metal fines in the system.

I dropped the oil and pulled the side off the pan (it does have an access panel on the passenger side. With a pen magnet, I have found 7 balls. I think from what I read, there should be 6 in each bearing so a total of 12. Thus as of lunchtime, I am missing another 5 ball bearings.

I am getting a big magnet and going to run it over the outside of the pan and try to see if I can find more balls.

Here is the big question: If I don't find the others - then what?? They gotta be in there somewhere.

What a pain in the a**!

What a Lucky Guy!

bobodaclown · #22 03-27-2011, 11:10 AM

OK one bearing not accounted for; that sucks, but it could be worse. I'd recommend getting a replacement oil pan drain plug with the magnet on the end, $5 at Auto Zone or such. It might be caught on a lip or something like that and will fall later.

Some one with more knowledge than me may be able to chime in and say if it could have gotten into the top end. Thrown up by the chain or something like that.

Have you changed the oil and filter? Last line of defense stuff.

I understand your frustration. You've dodged a bullet, but are still playing some Russian roulette with the one un-accounted for bearing. Only you can determine what you find acceptable.

vstech · #23 03-27-2011, 11:29 AM

CERTAINLY need to pull that ramp assembly. it looks pretty scored.
I have a spare.
I can't tell much from the pics, but I'd pull the valve cover and look over the timing chain gears. the ones in the pics could be pointed...

bobodaclown · #24 03-27-2011, 11:59 AM

Should he pull the Valve cover and check there for the lost ball bearing? Could it end up there? Thrown by the chain?

benmack1 · #25 03-27-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

CERTAINLY need to pull that ramp assembly. it looks pretty scored.
I have a spare.
I can't tell much from the pics, but I'd pull the valve cover and look over the timing chain gears. the ones in the pics could be pointed...

Sorry for my ignorance here. What is the 'ramp asssembly' exactly and what looks scored in the pics (is that what I am calling the lobes that the pump bearing runs on)? To my eye things looked pretty good but I realize that is an untrained eye. THe pics were misleading when I say them, they look scratched up but are smooth to the touch. THe other marks outside of the uneven lobe part is residual oil. Thanks for the comments, I could use some clarity to I understand better. I don't want to miss the poiint here - thanks again.

I'll definitely get a magnetic plug and of course an oil change is happening here. Filter out and oil dropped currently. Will replace both with new and I was thinking maybe the next change at 500-600 miles in case some fines are in the system??
__________________

kerry · #26 03-27-2011, 01:39 PM

I too thought the ramp looked scored but since I have nothing to compare it to, I was wondering whether it would continue to work fine in its current condition.

vstech · #27 03-27-2011, 06:29 PM

yes, the ramp is the part the pump bearing rides on. if you are sure it's polished and smooth, then OK, but it sure looks scored in the pics.

benmack1 · #28 03-27-2011, 06:45 PM

Thanks for the clarification VSTECH. I appreciate your endulgance of my limited vocabulary here. I think the roller coaster is polished and smooth. I too was surprised at the way the pics looked vs. how it looked by eye and feel. I just went out and felt it over again, it's smooth by touch and even with a fingernail across it. The edges are square and not rounded off and I don't feel any grooving on the flat surface. I agree the pics do look much more scored than it seems in person. Thanks. I think I'm going to risk it and not try to pull that gear. I think that may be more than my skills allow. Maybe I'm making the wrong call, but if I take it in, it will probably cost more than the car is worth anymore anyway if I have to have that gear and timing chain torn down. I may pull the valve cover and take a peek at the top end but I don't expect I'll find anything in there. I do wish I could account for ball #12. Some more looking is definitely in order before reassembly next weekend. Since I found 11 others in the pan, I suspect it is down there and I just can't locate it. I spent alot of time to find the other 11 balls and I can certainly believe there is another in there that maybe more looking would uncover. Very frustrating problem - uncertainty is worrisome.

Man this seems like a crappy design overall. I am surprised since these motors are thought of as bulletproof. This is not what I ever expected.

bobodaclown · #29 03-27-2011, 07:07 PM

When you have time, if you do a search on Vac Pump, you'll find that the old design of the vac pump is an Achilles heel on these OM602/603 engines. The new pump design bearing better sealed resolved that issue. I've read post that after 150K they should be replaced especially if you have the old design exposed bearings.

gsrx has great images and write up about the vac pump: some great images here:http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_misc/vac_pump/

Mark DiSilvestro · #30 03-27-2011, 09:03 PM

Same thing happened last fall to my '84 Euro 300TD - NA 617, except 11 of the balls were actually caught in the oil-pump pickup, but prevented from doing any damage by the screen. My engine has a removeable lower pan, so I was able to pull and clean the oil-pump screen. Fished round the timing-chain cavity from below and above with a magnet for awhile, and checked all round the camshaft-gear area and never found ball # 12. It may be lodged harmlessly in some nook somewhere, or hopefully, as someone suggested, it came out when I drained the oil. My pump drive-cam had what looked like significant scratch-marks, but nothing I could feel or snag with my fingernail. Since I put in the new pump, it's gone over 1000 miles, including much highway driving, with no problems.
The replacemant Pierburg pump had a steel bearing-cage - not plastic like the original.
Good luck with yours (and wish me luck too!).

Happy Motoring, Mark