propane in place of freon
 

Will propane work in place of freon?

I have a 81 300sd that has a quick connector on the suction side and the original connector on the high side.
How would I know if the oil has been changed for 134 or has the 134 put in over the freon 12 oil?
I heard that propane will mix with either oil. So I open a can of worms here!

But if the F12 oil has not been removed and the f134 oil has been injected and mixed, then the chances of my compressor locking up?
It would be nice if people changing this stuff around, would put a sticker or a note in the glove box.

Tom

not only would it be nice, but it's the law... not that there is any enforcement to the law.
with only a suction connector on there, odds are high that some ester oil was sprayed in, and the 134 was put in by a random person, not a technician.
if the compressor runs now, I'd play it safe, pull the lines apart, flush each one, and the coils, put new o-rings in, and replace the receiver then put in all but 2 oz of mineral oil in, and install R12 in the system and enjoy the best cooling the car is capable of.

FYI Freeze-12 IS propane.

NO
 

Yes propane is an excellant refridgerant. HOWEVER, propane will burn, and if you get a leak inside the cabin area, and there is a spark created from some source. think explosion = boom= dead. or you will be severly burned.

Also with the condensor is on the leading edge on the vehicle, in an accident. it gets there first, and another possible fire.

NO DO NOT USE IT> I believe it is a federal offence to use it, and most states ban the use of it. a mixture of freon and propane is refered to junk freons. no shop will want this mixed into their recovery machines.

Charlie

Freeze 12 is not Propane, it is a mixture of 134a and a small amount of HCFC142 to mix with the mineral oil and keep it in suspension, which 134a will not do.

The explosion hazard of using a propane/butane (HC) mix is a hot button topic. I personally think it's overplayed and not that big a concern. Any leaking propane would need an ignition source and be present in the right concentration to be a fire hazard -- an unlikely situation. Plus, there has been only one one documented case of a car fire from propane refrigerant. Considering the thousands of cars running HC refrigeration, I'd say that's a pretty good record.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.htm

True, HC refrigerants are illegal in automotive refrigerants. They're okay for industrial refrigeration.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/qa.html

How old are you ?

134 plus oil is also flammable, same flash point as r 290(refridgerant grade propane). Propane will run at a higher pressure then r-12. I do not use it for this reason. hardware store propane is not refridgerant grade, and has a lot more impurities and a lower flash point, really should not be used as a refridgerant.

What you refer to as Freon 12 or F12 oil or R-12 is usually mineral oil.

R-134a could use PAG oil, since it's the best for 134a miscibility AND lubrication.

Ester oil is compatible with both R-12 and R-134a, but the lubrication properties aren't as good.

If you're worried about "not making the problem worse" by using propane in hopes of avoid oil mixing problems, that's probably the wrong approach.

If you've got no service records and your system is sealed with some pressure but not working and has no obvious oil leaks at the fittings, the easiest approach would be to find a shop that has a junk tank (these are recommended by the EPA) and have them evacuate your system. They may have a detector and can tell you refrigerant type, maybe not.

Once empty, leave the vacuum on it as a leak check. This isn't perfect but may provide an indication.

If no leaks, have them re-fill the system with 134a through the service port and add a small amount of oil from the machine. This is probably the "simplest" legal way to do it, but not necessarily the "best" legal way to ensure system performance and longevity.

You'll be taking some risk, but the presence of the quick connector tends to indicate something other than R-12. Odds are that "other" is 134a. It might not be, but it probably is.

The best way to be positive you've got to evacuate the system, flush it, re-fill it with the appropriate amounts of the correct oil for whatever refrigerant you're using.

Adding propane because you're worried about oil mixing and causing the compressor to seize seems like a bad idea.

IS A BAD IDEA.

Hey 47dodge,

Glad to see that someone knows what R-290 is !!!!

Propane works, but the pressures are higher.

I've been running it for years.

All refrigerant are mixes of hydrocarbons.

All hydrocarbons will burn.
Or if confined, will explode.

Some may be safer than others, but it depends on the situation.

Don't believe me, try putting a can of your favorite in a campfire.
Get way away from it and watch for the mushroom cloud.

Use at your own risk.

I can't wait until the police pull me over and check if I have a "legal" refrigerant
in my ac.

R22, and R134 are both hydrocarbons...
however, they have been approved for use in the united states in mobile refrigeration systems... 290 has not.

agreed, you are not going to get pulled over, or investigated, and it may someday be approved, but for now, it's illegal in most states to use it.


the gasoline/ diesel is supremely more dangerous in a motor vehicle, but there are protections built into fuel systems, and placement of the container for the fuel is protected... not so with the refrigeration containers...

1. Where you might have serious problems ( aside from getting burned ) is if there is a fire in an accident and authorities found out you had an illegal flammable refrigerant in your system....liability could be HUGE... including criminal charges.

2. " refrigeration containers "..... lets paint a more dramatic picture of that... the most obvious reference is to the CONDENSOR .. which is at the Very Front of the car... so it is exposed with no protection in the case of hitting something with the front of the car.

Just dont forget also if your evaporator fails & your smoking it could be interesting !!

I was assuming that all of the people on the Diesel Forum were smart enough to not smoke ... period.... since they already have a higher COPD exposure risk just from being around Diesels in the first place...

I would like to think this as well !!
All our cars have the cig lighter removed.
It is surprising when some one asks if you mind if they smoke, you say you do & they get upset.

Any propane leak is most likely to pool near the floor. The tiny spark from the brake peddle switch might do the trick when you put your foot on it.

In 1971 I had an Army buddy ask if I minded him smoking in the car... I said Yes, he proceeded to start to light up.. I stopped the car and offered to let him out.. in the middle of a Texas summer and a long way from anything on a large Army base...before the invention of cell phones..... LOL
He decided to stay in the car... but was Surprised that I actually meant ' No '....after me saying ' No '....

Propane pooling... spark....Talk about ' blowing smoke up your pant leg '

Guess when I run out of propane for my torch I might fill it with r134.

If I do, i'll take a pic for you.

All refrigerant are hydrocarbons.
All hydrocarbons burn, and can explode.

Gasoline, or diesel fuel leaking from your car in an accident is far more
likely to combust, than refrigerant from your ac system.

Try turning your torch on all the way before you light it.
It is very hard to light, and will usually blow a cigarette lighter out,
instead of igniting.

It takes a very precise mix of fuel and air for a substance to ignite.
That's why vehicles have carburators and injectors.
And torches have mixing nozzle.

Tell that to those who in the past have used a BCF fire extinguisher !!!

Ammonia is a very commonly used refrigerant as well. No carbon in it !!!

Hydrocarbons can be used as refrigerants, Organo-halogens like freons do a far better job.

Key Concepts UNNECESSARY and easily AVOIDABLE risks
 

How old are you ?
You are mixing and matching your ' examples' to fit your needs.... not based on reality and legitimate safety concerns.

As already mentioned.... gas and fuel in cars is protected as best they can within cost factors..
BUT changing to propane and putting it at the front of the vehicle is clearly a very different and UNNECESSARY potential danger.

Lets take your gas carb example ....with manual choke... all it takes is to fully choke it.... maxing out the density of the gas-air ratio... open the throttle fully....crank the engine ... and take the choke all the way off.... what happens is that it AUTOMATICALLY starts at the point where the two ratios cross at whatever the engine is needing.. .which can vary depending on lots of conditions... but it offers all the combos automatically..... so if fuel to air ratio is what is keeping the engine from starting....that will be provided by that method.
In and accident with random sparks happening due to friction... releasing propane in the area has a huge potential for hitting that correct fuel to air ratio.... and if you are pinned in the vehicle... you are then subject to a potentially fatal and UNNECESSARY risk even if the accident was totally survivable otherwise...

Everyone should see ' The Great Waldo Pepper' with Robert Redford....

Great Movie... Of course nothing to do with propane but very illustrative of secondary events being a disaster.

Still, a pound of Propane? Not that much in the scheme of things. Now the Hindenberg (H2, I know)!?! Point clearly made; however...

' Pound of Propane' ... the bigger picture includes ( in addition to unnecessary risk ) the fact that propane may not provide the oil miscibility needed to lube our R4 compressors....as they do not have a sump... and I do not know how efficient it is compared to R12 or R134a.....and the fact that finding a shop which will work on it... very doubtful...( I always worry about being caught hundreds of miles from home on a trip and needing service ).

As to the Hindenberg... on PBS ' History Detectives' or Nova there was a really great investigation which concluded that the problem was not the H2 but that the skin was made of very inappropriate material...

Notice reference to propane here...
http://www.seas.ucla.edu/hsseas/releases/blimp.htm

" "Actually, its great buoyancy and extremely high diffusivity in air make for a very rapid dispersal before ignition can take place," Van Vorst further noted. "Gasoline, on the other hand, with its heavier-than-air vapor, simply accumulates until a flammable mixture is formed and ignites." In fact, he said, hydrogen is even "safer than propane, and is on a par with natural gas.""

Seriously, there's likely more propane in a can of hairspray than it takes to charge an a/c. Propane is so efficient that it only requires about 1/3 the charge compared to R12 or R22 while typically outperforming either. It is also miscible in all common refrigerant oils. It's high side pressure will run higher but can be brought down with a slight addition of Butane.

I'd still be a lot more worried about travelling at high velocities with 15+ gallons of gasoline on board.

Do you have any cans of hairspray tied to the front of your car ?
You are in the Diesel Forum.... we are not carrying gasoline in our cars....
Can you speak with authority about the oil miscibility question ?

I don't have a link, if that's what you're asking. I read it somewhere longer ago than I can remember and experience has confirmed it. Liquid propane is a really good solvent. I think you would be hard pressed to find a lubricating oil it wouldn't dissolve into.

Are you using propane in your car AC ?
if yes, what pressures are you seeing ?
What oil did you use ?

I currently have it in a stationary system that was originally R22. It runs around 45/325 in hot weather. Was gonna shoot a little butane into it but the performance was so superior to the R22 that I decided not to mess with it. Using ester oil in that system. FWIW, with R22 it would run constant for hours on end. WIth propane it will cycle off the thermostat in 10 minutes.

It will run similar pressures in a mobile system. Since there is variance in compressor speed and airflow in mobile systems, it can spike higher but it's hard to set a rule how much.

No one is complaining about the idea of using it in a stationary system...

If your only objection is the risk of some catastrophic explosion in the very unlikey event of system compromise and ignition.... I'm not terribly convinced. I've seen a you-tube of a propane charged car blow a hose on the dyno and ignite it. It lit and blew flame like a large aggressive torch.... whoosh, not kaboom. Is there risk, yeah maybe to a small extent, but that risk isn't the car exploding into a fireball from a ding in the condensor.

You just don't understand the word ' unnecessary'.
There are plenty of risks in the world which we have to face...but try to minimize..
There are some that can be avoided entirely.
Using propane in a moving vehicle is one of them.
If it is your family that gets burned by that freakishly small UNNECESSARY risk....you would figure it out ....too late..
Normal people understand these concepts. The same people who would be sitting on a jury if your lack of concern for the law or potential injury hurts someone. I have already been over these points with JimmyL over the years... this is my final post on this.
It is Extremely interesting that you would promote propane in a fashion which might cause someone to think it was OK to use... but do not have it in a moving vehicle yourself....

AND you misrepresent my concern... it is for having a flammable gas with a low flash point in a vulnerable area which might make the difference between a fire starting and not... not that a huge explosion will blow the car to pieces.

I doubt this. When I tested this out on my 92 Jetta it used about half of the 17 oz propane torch bottle I had picked up. Not only is a hairspray container smaller than that, I doubt it's mostly propane. (I will say this... MAN OH MAN DID IT COOL WELL! It was almost unbelievable... 95* day at very high humidity and it was blowing 38* at the vents with the resirc off! There was a river under the car from all the water pouring off the evaporator.)

The concern about fire is valid IMHO. Fuel lines do not run inside the dashboard.

-J

How long did you run that fuel grade propane in the 92 Jetta? What kind of pressures were you running? Any problems?

There was a leak so the charge lasted about 3 days. Straight propane made pressures on the high side that were too high, it was running about 32/280 as I recall. It was enough to kick the fans onto high speed almost right away. I'm sure if I had run the system for a long time at those pressures the compressor would have given out.

I was mostly doing it as a test.

-J

Were you able to smell the leak?

No. I don't know where it was. I did initially have a large leak on the condenser and that one I could smell.

-J

Diesel isn't flammable at STP. You can extinguish fires with it.
By contrast, propane is not only flammable, but explosive. And the system in question is under pressure. It also has a flash point low enough that many engine components could reasonably ignite it. The exhaust manifold on a turbo leaps to mind.

Put the propane in the intake manifold where it belongs. :P

The risk didn't stop Waldo from having good AC...

yes, I guess I should have said that diesel and gasoline have substantially more energy in the fuel tank than the entire charge of propane would be in the a/c system, but the fuel is protected, and the a/c system is not, and it's right in the front of the car and flows into the cabin of the car...
not where I would want an explosive fuel in the event of an accident.

Yes, he had Great AC right up to the minute his friend beat him to death to keep him from burning to death in the crash......

R12 will explode, so will R134 and almost all modern refrigerants.

Propane is no more or less explosive than other refrigerants.

Look up the MSDS sheets for proof.

I speek from experience and knowledge, not opinion.

I have direct experience with using propane as a refrigerant.
And indirect from car sales lots that have big tanks of it.

And have researched the subject to my satisfaction.
I know it was used for many years before the use of more recent refrigerants.

I do not wish to fight with you.

I do not agree with your opinions.

Everyone is free to make up their own mind about what they want to do.

Thank you.

Waldo did the beating... With a big hammer...

Watch it again :P

That is not what the refrigeration books say ...

The question is why the change from propane was made..
Safety perhaps ?

It may not be up to people when they know it is illegal in many states..

Ever seen R12 or R134a used to fire a Bar B Que Grill ?
Even Steel and wheat flour are explosive when mixed at the proper oxygen ratio.... Flour silos explode regularly... as do other powders....
but that does not mean that propane is as appropriate for refrigeration use as R12 and R134a...

I'd stay away from it with an old system just because the operating pressures are supposed to be higher. Would it be higher than 134a? If it's lower than 134a I'd give it a shot.

I have propane in my house and I don't live in fear...

I don't have a compressor pumping it either but I have a big tank!

But what is the ADVANTAGE of propane? If the choice is between a purpose-engineered product and one that just works okay, what reason is there to choose the latter? I haven't heard one person make a pro-propane argument, just non-anti-propane. Not the same thing.

Err... As already pointed out, It was Waldo who did the beating. Styles was trapped in the cockpit.

Personally, I'd like to see any ODS removed from use, if it is, in fact, an ODS. From what I have read, 134, propane, and several others are not ODS's... Maybe I need more research.

I don't understand why continue to promote the use of a substance that is classified as harmful to the atmosphere, and WILL be released. Of course, this argument pales when compared to the sheer amount of C dumped from all IC engines... :)

What is the highest Miles Per Hour you have had your house up to ?

Compare the volume of a potential leak's accumulation. Velocity becomes less of an issue, C'Nest Pas?

What happens if you shoot a propane tank with a high-calbre firearm? Above the liquid line? Below the liquid line?

Ignoring the flammability issue for a moment, what is the real reason for not using it, or any blend? Efficiency? Cost? Environment? Or some arbitrary law, allegedly on the books to "protect" us (taking the personal choice out of the equation). I believe in wearing seat-belts and that they can save lives in the event of a moderate collision. Does that mean I agree with a law requiring me to do so? No! Requiring me to require it for those who cannot choose for themselves? Perhaps (kids)...

I only shoot propane tanks with low caliber guns... so I do not know...