propane in place of freon - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

gozapper · #1 07-11-2011, 09:49 AM

Will propane work in place of freon?

I have a 81 300sd that has a quick connector on the suction side and the original connector on the high side.
How would I know if the oil has been changed for 134 or has the 134 put in over the freon 12 oil?
I heard that propane will mix with either oil. So I open a can of worms here!

But if the F12 oil has not been removed and the f134 oil has been injected and mixed, then the chances of my compressor locking up?
It would be nice if people changing this stuff around, would put a sticker or a note in the glove box.

Tom

vstech · #2 07-11-2011, 10:02 AM

not only would it be nice, but it's the law... not that there is any enforcement to the law.
with only a suction connector on there, odds are high that some ester oil was sprayed in, and the 134 was put in by a random person, not a technician.
if the compressor runs now, I'd play it safe, pull the lines apart, flush each one, and the coils, put new o-rings in, and replace the receiver then put in all but 2 oz of mineral oil in, and install R12 in the system and enjoy the best cooling the car is capable of.

Chadahar · #3 07-11-2011, 10:08 AM

FYI Freeze-12 IS propane.

charmalu · #4 07-11-2011, 10:09 AM

Yes propane is an excellant refridgerant. HOWEVER, propane will burn, and if you get a leak inside the cabin area, and there is a spark created from some source. think explosion = boom= dead. or you will be severly burned.

Also with the condensor is on the leading edge on the vehicle, in an accident. it gets there first, and another possible fire.

NO DO NOT USE IT> I believe it is a federal offence to use it, and most states ban the use of it. a mixture of freon and propane is refered to junk freons. no shop will want this mixed into their recovery machines.

Charlie

mechmagcn · #5 07-11-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadahar

FYI Freeze-12 IS propane.

Freeze 12 is not Propane, it is a mixture of 134a and a small amount of HCFC142 to mix with the mineral oil and keep it in suspension, which 134a will not do.

Kestas · #6 07-11-2011, 03:57 PM

The explosion hazard of using a propane/butane (HC) mix is a hot button topic. I personally think it's overplayed and not that big a concern. Any leaking propane would need an ignition source and be present in the right concentration to be a fire hazard -- an unlikely situation. Plus, there has been only one one documented case of a car fire from propane refrigerant. Considering the thousands of cars running HC refrigeration, I'd say that's a pretty good record.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.htm

True, HC refrigerants are illegal in automotive refrigerants. They're okay for industrial refrigeration.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/qa.html

leathermang · #7 07-11-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestas

The explosion hazard of using a propane/butane (HC) mix is a hot button topic. I personally think it's overplayed and not that big a concern. Any leaking propane would need an ignition source and be present in the right concentration to be a fire hazard -- an unlikely situation. Plus, there has been only one one documented case of a car fire from propane refrigerant. Considering the thousands of cars running HC refrigeration, I'd say that's a pretty good record.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.htm

True, HC refrigerants are illegal in automotive refrigerants. They're okay for industrial refrigeration.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/qa.html

How old are you ?

47dodge · #8 07-11-2011, 06:05 PM

134 plus oil is also flammable, same flash point as r 290(refridgerant grade propane). Propane will run at a higher pressure then r-12. I do not use it for this reason. hardware store propane is not refridgerant grade, and has a lot more impurities and a lower flash point, really should not be used as a refridgerant.

Yak · #9 07-11-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gozapper

Will propane work in place of freon?

I have a 81 300sd that has a quick connector on the suction side and the original connector on the high side.
How would I know if the oil has been changed for 134 or has the 134 put in over the freon 12 oil?
I heard that propane will mix with either oil. So I open a can of worms here!

But if the F12 oil has not been removed and the f134 oil has been injected and mixed, then the chances of my compressor locking up?
It would be nice if people changing this stuff around, would put a sticker or a note in the glove box.

Tom

What you refer to as Freon 12 or F12 oil or R-12 is usually mineral oil.

R-134a could use PAG oil, since it's the best for 134a miscibility AND lubrication.

Ester oil is compatible with both R-12 and R-134a, but the lubrication properties aren't as good.

If you're worried about "not making the problem worse" by using propane in hopes of avoid oil mixing problems, that's probably the wrong approach.

If you've got no service records and your system is sealed with some pressure but not working and has no obvious oil leaks at the fittings, the easiest approach would be to find a shop that has a junk tank (these are recommended by the EPA) and have them evacuate your system. They may have a detector and can tell you refrigerant type, maybe not.

Once empty, leave the vacuum on it as a leak check. This isn't perfect but may provide an indication.

If no leaks, have them re-fill the system with 134a through the service port and add a small amount of oil from the machine. This is probably the "simplest" legal way to do it, but not necessarily the "best" legal way to ensure system performance and longevity.

You'll be taking some risk, but the presence of the quick connector tends to indicate something other than R-12. Odds are that "other" is 134a. It might not be, but it probably is.

The best way to be positive you've got to evacuate the system, flush it, re-fill it with the appropriate amounts of the correct oil for whatever refrigerant you're using.

Adding propane because you're worried about oil mixing and causing the compressor to seize seems like a bad idea.

leathermang · #10 07-11-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yak

Adding propane because you're worried about oil mixing and causing the compressor to seize seems like a bad idea.

IS A BAD IDEA.

Lycoming-8 · #11 07-11-2011, 10:52 PM

Hey 47dodge,

Glad to see that someone knows what R-290 is !!!!

RichC · #12 07-12-2011, 03:21 AM

Propane works, but the pressures are higher.

I've been running it for years.

All refrigerant are mixes of hydrocarbons.

All hydrocarbons will burn.
Or if confined, will explode.

Some may be safer than others, but it depends on the situation.

Don't believe me, try putting a can of your favorite in a campfire.
Get way away from it and watch for the mushroom cloud.

Use at your own risk.

I can't wait until the police pull me over and check if I have a "legal" refrigerant
in my ac.

vstech · #13 07-12-2011, 08:35 AM

R22, and R134 are both hydrocarbons...
however, they have been approved for use in the united states in mobile refrigeration systems... 290 has not.

agreed, you are not going to get pulled over, or investigated, and it may someday be approved, but for now, it's illegal in most states to use it.

the gasoline/ diesel is supremely more dangerous in a motor vehicle, but there are protections built into fuel systems, and placement of the container for the fuel is protected... not so with the refrigeration containers...

leathermang · #14 07-12-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

, you are not going to get pulled over, or investigated, and it may someday be approved, but for now, it's illegal in most states to use it......the gasoline/ diesel is supremely more dangerous in a motor vehicle, but there are protections built into fuel systems, and placement of the container for the fuel is protected... not so with the refrigeration containers...

1. Where you might have serious problems ( aside from getting burned ) is if there is a fire in an accident and authorities found out you had an illegal flammable refrigerant in your system....liability could be HUGE... including criminal charges.

2. " refrigeration containers "..... lets paint a more dramatic picture of that... the most obvious reference is to the CONDENSOR .. which is at the Very Front of the car... so it is exposed with no protection in the case of hitting something with the front of the car.

layback40 · #15 07-12-2011, 10:02 AM

Just dont forget also if your evaporator fails & your smoking it could be interesting !!