propane in place of freon - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

leathermang · #31 07-13-2011, 08:37 AM

You just don't understand the word ' unnecessary'.
There are plenty of risks in the world which we have to face...but try to minimize..
There are some that can be avoided entirely.
Using propane in a moving vehicle is one of them.
If it is your family that gets burned by that freakishly small UNNECESSARY risk....you would figure it out ....too late..
Normal people understand these concepts. The same people who would be sitting on a jury if your lack of concern for the law or potential injury hurts someone. I have already been over these points with JimmyL over the years... this is my final post on this.
It is Extremely interesting that you would promote propane in a fashion which might cause someone to think it was OK to use... but do not have it in a moving vehicle yourself....

AND you misrepresent my concern... it is for having a flammable gas with a low flash point in a vulnerable area which might make the difference between a fire starting and not... not that a huge explosion will blow the car to pieces.

compu_85 · #32 07-13-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duxthe1

Seriously, there's likely more propane in a can of hairspray than it takes to charge an a/c.

I doubt this. When I tested this out on my 92 Jetta it used about half of the 17 oz propane torch bottle I had picked up. Not only is a hairspray container smaller than that, I doubt it's mostly propane. (I will say this... MAN OH MAN DID IT COOL WELL! It was almost unbelievable... 95* day at very high humidity and it was blowing 38* at the vents with the resirc off! There was a river under the car from all the water pouring off the evaporator.)

The concern about fire is valid IMHO. Fuel lines do not run inside the dashboard.

-J

funola · #33 07-13-2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by compu_85

I doubt this. When I tested this out on my 92 Jetta it used about half of the 17 oz propane torch bottle I had picked up. Not only is a hairspray container smaller than that, I doubt it's mostly propane. (I will say this... MAN OH MAN DID IT COOL WELL! It was almost unbelievable... 95* day at very high humidity and it was blowing 38* at the vents with the resirc off! There was a river under the car from all the water pouring off the evaporator.)

The concern about fire is valid IMHO. Fuel lines do not run inside the dashboard.

-J

How long did you run that fuel grade propane in the 92 Jetta? What kind of pressures were you running? Any problems?

compu_85 · #34 07-13-2011, 10:33 AM

There was a leak so the charge lasted about 3 days. Straight propane made pressures on the high side that were too high, it was running about 32/280 as I recall. It was enough to kick the fans onto high speed almost right away. I'm sure if I had run the system for a long time at those pressures the compressor would have given out.

I was mostly doing it as a test.

-J

funola · #35 07-13-2011, 10:37 AM

Were you able to smell the leak?

compu_85 · #36 07-13-2011, 11:47 AM

No. I don't know where it was. I did initially have a large leak on the condenser and that one I could smell.

-J

okto · #37 07-13-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

gasoline/ diesel is supremely more dangerous in a motor vehicle

Diesel isn't flammable at STP. You can extinguish fires with it.
By contrast, propane is not only flammable, but explosive. And the system in question is under pressure. It also has a flash point low enough that many engine components could reasonably ignite it. The exhaust manifold on a turbo leaps to mind.

Put the propane in the intake manifold where it belongs.

1980sd · #38 07-13-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Everyone should see ' The Great Waldo Pepper' with Robert Redford....

The risk didn't stop Waldo from having good AC...

vstech · #39 07-13-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okto

Diesel isn't flammable at STP. You can extinguish fires with it.
By contrast, propane is not only flammable, but explosive. And the system in question is under pressure. It also has a flash point low enough that many engine components could reasonably ignite it. The exhaust manifold on a turbo leaps to mind.

Put the propane in the intake manifold where it belongs.

yes, I guess I should have said that diesel and gasoline have substantially more energy in the fuel tank than the entire charge of propane would be in the a/c system, but the fuel is protected, and the a/c system is not, and it's right in the front of the car and flows into the cabin of the car...
not where I would want an explosive fuel in the event of an accident.

leathermang · #40 07-13-2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1980sd

The risk didn't stop Waldo from having good AC...

Yes, he had Great AC right up to the minute his friend beat him to death to keep him from burning to death in the crash......

RichC · #41 07-13-2011, 05:17 PM

R12 will explode, so will R134 and almost all modern refrigerants.

Propane is no more or less explosive than other refrigerants.

Look up the MSDS sheets for proof.

I speek from experience and knowledge, not opinion.

I have direct experience with using propane as a refrigerant.
And indirect from car sales lots that have big tanks of it.

And have researched the subject to my satisfaction.
I know it was used for many years before the use of more recent refrigerants.

I do not wish to fight with you.

I do not agree with your opinions.

Everyone is free to make up their own mind about what they want to do.

Thank you.

1980sd · #42 07-13-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Yes, he had Great AC right up to the minute his friend beat him to death to keep him from burning to death in the crash......

Waldo did the beating... With a big hammer...

Watch it again

leathermang · #43 07-13-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

....R12 will explode, so will R134 and almost all modern refrigerants.

Propane is no more or less explosive than other refrigerants.

I know it was used for many years before the use of more recent refrigerants.

Everyone is free to make up their own mind about what they want to do.....

That is not what the refrigeration books say ...

The question is why the change from propane was made..
Safety perhaps ?

It may not be up to people when they know it is illegal in many states..

Ever seen R12 or R134a used to fire a Bar B Que Grill ?
Even Steel and wheat flour are explosive when mixed at the proper oxygen ratio.... Flour silos explode regularly... as do other powders....
but that does not mean that propane is as appropriate for refrigeration use as R12 and R134a...

1980sd · #44 07-13-2011, 05:46 PM

I'd stay away from it with an old system just because the operating pressures are supposed to be higher. Would it be higher than 134a? If it's lower than 134a I'd give it a shot.

I have propane in my house and I don't live in fear...

I don't have a compressor pumping it either but I have a big tank!

okto · #45 07-13-2011, 06:08 PM

But what is the ADVANTAGE of propane? If the choice is between a purpose-engineered product and one that just works okay, what reason is there to choose the latter? I haven't heard one person make a pro-propane argument, just non-anti-propane. Not the same thing.