PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum - Goodbye R134a, hello HFO-1234yf

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Right now putting r-1234yf in a w123/124/whatev in place of r12 or r134a doesn't seem to be a possibility. The EPA hasn't approved of it for any retrofitting, mostly because they haven't approved of system requirements.

Quote:

In this final rule, EPA is finding HFO-1234yf acceptable, subject
to use conditions, as a substitute for CFC-12 in new MVAC systems for
passenger cars and light-duty trucks. This determination does not apply
to the use of HFO-1234yf as a conversion or retrofit for existing MVAC
systems. In addition, it does not apply to the use of HFO-1234yf in the
air conditioning or refrigeration systems of heavy-duty trucks,
refrigerated transport, or off-road vehicles such as agricultural or
construction equipment.

Concerning Cost

Quote:

Cost and Availability

EPA received initial estimates of the anticipated cost of HFO-
1234yf from the manufacturer, claimed as confidential business
information, as part of the initial SNAP submission (EPA-HQ-OAR-2008-
0664-0013 and -0013.1). Initial publicly available estimates on the
cost of HFO-1234yf were for approximately $40-60/pound (Weissler,
2008). The first automobile manufacturer to announce its commitment to
use HFO-1234yf as a refrigerant has confirmed that the prices in its
long-term purchase contracts are in the range that EPA considered at
the time of proposal (Sciance, 2010).
In May 2010, two major chemical manufacturers, including the
original submitter, issued a press release, committing to building a
``world-scale manufacturing facility'' to produce HFO-1234yf (EPA-HQ-
OAR-2008-0664-0128.1). The same manufacturers have committed to
providing HFO-1234yf in time to meet requirements of a European Union
directive to use only refrigerants with GWP less than 150 in new
automobile designs starting in 2011.

Further on in the document it stated that only large containers (20lb. or more) would be available and that one would have to contact the manufacturer of the refrigerant to get access to any smaller containers.

So as of right now, unless you buy a container of 20lb. or more YOU CAN'T PHYSICALLY PUT THIS IN YOUR CAR. Not to mention that the EPA has not yet approved of any fittings for smaller containers, so acquiring a smaller container from a foreign source would technically be illegal, but I'm not sure that's really a concern on this board.

I've read quite a few articles on this stuff, and doubt in the near future it will be available to any but auto manufacturers.
the UL listings and design systems are waaaay off the charts for retrofits. (multi million licensing fees etc...) keep in mind it's a PROPANE refrigerant, that is illegal as a retrofit just like envirosafe is in the US... toss that in, and figure the markup we indi mechanics would put on 60/lb (134 is generally available at 3ish a pound, and the average price charged is 40/lb... so 1234y's 50/lb average price would put the retrofit price per pound at 600/lb... not bloody likely anyone is gonna pay that)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction (Post 2773360)

That is not true for outside the USA and its not banned from sale.

If I read this correctly 2013/2015 is the cut off for production of most HCFCs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol

spec sheet on HFO-1234yf

Daimler ain't impressed. Seems they have raised concerns about it's flammability. Looks like all the other automakers are falling in line.

HFO-1234yf

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction (Post 2773360)

That is not true for outside the USA and its not banned from sale.

I have a refrigerant license and I can buy R-12, in 30 lbs cylinders or 1 lb cans, as easily as I can obtain R134a.

How bout the HFO-1234yf Doc? How much is it?

Our suppliers have estimated $70.00 per pound (cost) and $150.00 (retail) when and if it comes to us....

thanks

I guess it has it's own machine?

That's what we are being told...

So I there's no legal dispute in the US over the new refrigerant like in Germany? I would not want to be working with this stuff.

Killer-Kältemittel - Achtung, Lebensgefahr! - YouTube

HFO-1234yf canister flammability test - YouTube

Mercedes-Benz Independent Study Finds New Refrigerant to Be Dangerous | eMercedesBenz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doktor Bert (Post 3166418)

I have a refrigerant license and I can buy R-12, in 30 lbs cylinders or 1 lb cans, as easily as I can obtain R134a.

... not if you only have a $100 bill...:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 3166436)

... not if you only have a $100 bill...:D

\

True....
I can still buy 1 lb cans from Napa for $24.50/lb and from E-Bay for a little less. I Bought a 30 lb cylinder last month for $525.00.

guess i need to start hoarding r134 in addition to the r12, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doktor Bert (Post 3166451)

\

True....
I can still buy 1 lb cans from Napa for $24.50/lb and from E-Bay for a little less. I Bought a 30 lb cylinder last month for $525.00.

yeah, the R12 jugs are all over the place in price this year... it's gone from 425 to 1100 to 550 crazy...

I don't know if stocking up on R134a is wise. I don't think we will ever see the rise in price like we did with R-12. I remember when it was 99 cents a can at K-Mart in 1985...