My 350SDL Head gasket replacement - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

vitop · #76 10-08-2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

The head gasket numbers are:

OLD DISCONTINUED NLA, new/old stock was recalled and destroyed when superseded.
MB# 6030161820

Current production
MB# 6030162620

.

Yes, I show the 6030162620 as the correct number. However, I think they are supplying the 6030163720 (meant for later heads) in its place. The dealer said they still sell the 2620 and I might have them bring it in to see if those passages are properly closed off for the earlier applications.

gsxr · #77 10-08-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

I disagree, it is not common, but possible.
If the oil supply passage is leaking into a cylinder.
An already saturated cylinder will force excess oil out every possible location.
It would also indicate a very poor seal between valve and seat, and sloppy-bad valve guides.

The problem is, the only oil supply passage to the OM60x cylinder head is in front of the #1 cylinder. That was my point... there is not an oil passage by the other cylinders to allow oil to be squirted in there.

There is also not a large amount of oil sprayed on the valve stems, the primary oil feed is to the hydraulic lifters. Again, if there was a ton of oil dumping down the valve stem only on one cylinder, it should be very obvious looking into the ports on the head. That cylinder would have very wet oily valves and the other cylinders would not (or would at least be visibly different).

I also don't think that oil would come from the turbo into the cylinders during a compression test. While the engine is running, sure, that's possible. But cranking from the starter? How would that much oil blow vertically up & over from the turbo to the intake, and then backwards towards the head, at low RPM with the turbo impeller barely moving?

I still want to know the piston protrusion data...

gsxr · #78 10-08-2012, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

Yes, I show the 6030162620 as the correct number. However, I think they are supplying the 6030163720 (meant for later heads) in its place. The dealer said they still sell the 2620 and I might have them bring it in to see if those passages are properly closed off for the earlier applications.

-26-20 is for the .970 engine and .971 engines through #002834.

-37-20 is for .971 engines as of #002835.

There is a specific note in the EPC that for .971 engines, the older crankcase (block) should use the older gasket, -26-20. Apparently there were changes mid-production and the later .971 motors use a different block, which requires the late gasket, and the late gasket is NOT backwards-compatible. This shouldn't affect your car since you have a .970, not .971 engine. Right?

What is the part number of the gasket you removed? It may still be readable.

What makes you think someone is supplying -37-20 in place of -26-20?

vitop · #79 10-08-2012, 06:37 PM

The label on the gasket set is 894.028 (Elring number)

The description says M.B. 603.971 ab Mot. 002835 and then an arrow to the right which I think indicates "and up"

I called ********AZ and they said it is the only part they can get from Elring. And the cooling ports on this gasket are open when they are closed on my head and on my original gasket.

I know they made improvements on the later heads, and am just guessing that the cooling ports may have been opened up to match the ports on the block.

just kind of seems they may be only supplying the lastest gasket. Maybe they think the last supercession must be the best, when in fact, there are two that need to be supplied.

whunter · #80 10-08-2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

The problem is, the only oil supply passage to the OM60x cylinder head is in front of the #1 cylinder. That was my point... there is not an oil passage by the other cylinders to allow oil to be squirted in there.

There is also not a large amount of oil sprayed on the valve stems, the primary oil feed is to the hydraulic lifters. Again, if there was a ton of oil dumping down the valve stem only on one cylinder, it should be very obvious looking into the ports on the head. That cylinder would have very wet oily valves and the other cylinders would not (or would at least be visibly different).

I also don't think that oil would come from the turbo into the cylinders during a compression test. While the engine is running, sure, that's possible. But cranking from the starter? How would that much oil blow vertically up & over from the turbo to the intake, and then backwards towards the head, at low RPM with the turbo impeller barely moving?

I still want to know the piston protrusion data...

I do not trust any answers without hands on diagnosis, not worth re-installing a known bad head to confirm/deny at this point.

The replacement head would require
A broken at the base valve guide draining down, or totally failed turbo oil seal + long cranking for valve guide oil squirting to be possible.
More likely (in the current scenario) I would assume it was contaminated coolant, or residual oil blowing out through a bad valve guide/stem seal.

In any case (to me) it would be virtually scream PROBLEM...

.

vitop · #81 10-08-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

I do not trust any answers without hands on diagnosis, not worth re-installing a known bad head to confirm/deny at this point.

The replacement head would require
A broken at the base valve guide draining down, or totally failed turbo oil seal + long cranking for valve guide oil squirting to be possible.
More likely (in the current scenario) I would assume it was contaminated coolant, or residual oil blowing out through a bad valve guide/stem seal.

In any case (to me) it would be virtually scream PROBLEM...

.

There is not much I can say for sure, but this is pure oil. Thick black diesel oil. I am pretty sure it is not contaminated coolant. I am going to have the head checked. If the valves are ok, that is going to limit the possibilities for sure. Also, I think the turbo is going to get rebuilt.

The one thing I am hoping is that it is not rings or bent rods.

whunter · #82 10-08-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

Yes, I show the 6030162620 as the correct number. However, I think they are supplying the 6030163720 (meant for later heads) in its place. The dealer said they still sell the 2620 and I might have them bring it in to see if those passages are properly closed off for the earlier applications.

I verified this through EPC, a local MB dealer and MBUSA.
They state: No MB dealer can get or supply this part..

No stock.
OLD superseded# No Longer Available.
All stock was recalled and destroyed when superseded.
MB# 6030161820

For members interested.
Here is a link to the full 1990 350SDL FSM cylinder head R&R procedure.
It requires Internet Explorer to view.
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12253/program/Engine/602_603/01-415.pdf

.

gsxr · #83 10-08-2012, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

The label on the gasket set is 894.028 (Elring number). The description says M.B. 603.971 ab Mot. 002835 and then an arrow to the right which I think indicates "and up"

Yes, that would be the late .971 gasket, and it is not correct for your engine. Was this the old gasket that came off your engine, or a new one you just purchased?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

I called ********AZ and they said it is the only part they can get from Elring. And the cooling ports on this gasket are open when they are closed on my head and on my original gasket.

What part number did you order from AwtohouseAZ? They are only showing Victor-Reinz gaskets when you search for the MB part numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

I know they made improvements on the later heads, and am just guessing that the cooling ports may have been opened up to match the ports on the block.

No, the changes which require the correct gasket are specific to the block, not the head. The same turbo head is used on all 603 blocks. But yes, there could have been changes to the coolant ports between early & late blocks - that I don't know. Either way it's irrelevant as you have a .970 motor and need a .970 gasket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

just kind of seems they may be only supplying the lastest gasket. Maybe they think the last supercession must be the best, when in fact, there are two that need to be supplied.

The Mercedes EPC was very clear about there being two different 3.5L head gaskets, early and late. You need the early one. Sometimes the aftermarket vendors screw things up, but at the moment I'm not sure what's going on.

gsxr · #84 10-08-2012, 07:12 PM

BTW, I hope you're sitting down when you see the price of 603-016-26-20 at the dealer... $302 MSRP. The late gasket (-37-20) is only $130 MSRP.

FYI, what you really want to order is 603-010-57-20, this is $306 MSRP but is a complete gasket kit, with the -26-20 head gasket, plus intake/exhaust gaskets, injector seals, and all the other misc seas & o-rings required during a head R&R. That is what I see at AwtohouseAZ in Elring brand, btw. It's all starting to make sense now. Every aftermarket vendor I checked all show the Elring kit, btw. If Elring is supplying the wrong gasket, you'll probably be stuck buying OE. Sounds like they may be sending you kit -73-20 or -86-20 (late .971) instead of the proper -57-20 kit.

I still wouldn't spend a dime until the piston protrusions are measured.

whunter · #85 10-08-2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

There is not much I can say for sure, but this is pure oil. Thick black diesel oil. I am pretty sure it is not contaminated coolant. I am going to have the head checked. If the valves are OK, that is going to limit the possibilities for sure. Also, I think the turbo is going to get rebuilt.

The one thing I am hoping is that it is not rings or bent rods.

Rebuilding the turbo BEFORE it totally pukes is smart.
Look at this thread.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/138131-175-mpg-sdl.html

Until we know the piston protrusion data, no answer is possible...

.

vitop · #86 10-08-2012, 07:28 PM

Hunter -- Which part are you saying is NLA? I know the 2620 is still available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

I verified this through EPC, a local MB dealer and MBUSA.
They state: No MB dealer can get or supply this part..

No stock.
OLD superseded# No Longer Available.
All stock was recalled and destroyed when superseded.
MB# 6030161820

For members interested.
Here is a link to the full 1990 350SDL FSM cylinder head R&R procedure.
It requires Internet Explorer to view.
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12253/program/Engine/602_603/01-415.pdf

.

vitop · #87 10-08-2012, 08:17 PM

See embedded answers

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Yes, that would be the late .971 gasket, and it is not correct for your engine. Was this the old gasket that came off your engine, or a new one you just purchased?

It is part of a new gasket kit #6030105720

What part number did you order from AwtohouseAZ? They are only showing Victor-Reinz gaskets when you search for the MB part numbers.

See above

No, the changes which require the correct gasket are specific to the block, not the head. The same turbo head is used on all 603 blocks. But yes, there could have been changes to the coolant ports between early & late blocks - that I don't know. Either way it's irrelevant as you have a .970 motor and need a .970 gasket.

That's interesting. I would have guessed they were head specific since that is where all the changes were.

The Mercedes EPC was very clear about there being two different 3.5L head gaskets, early and late. You need the early one. Sometimes the aftermarket vendors screw things up, but at the moment I'm not sure what's going on.

gsxr · #88 10-08-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitop

I would have guessed [the changes] were head specific since that is where all the changes were.

The block changed at that .971 engine number break point, and the gasket is block-specific. The heads received multiple upgrades as well but those updates were independent of engine number.

The final revision to the #22 head casting was to fully enclose the oil passage ahead of the #1 cylinder to help eliminate gasket failure in that location. Previous updates helped prevent cracking under high thermal loads.

vitop · #89 10-08-2012, 08:29 PM

Here are the portrusion numbers. Measurements were taken at the front and rear of each piston as best we could. The only issue I see is with #1 in terms of variance front to back. #2 looks pretty good

#1 Front .3048
Rear .6096

#2 Front .762
Rear .7112

#3 Front .6604
Rear .5842

#4 Front .5842
Rear .5842

#5 Front .7112
Rear .635

#6 Front .635
Rear .635

vitop · #90 10-08-2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

The block changed at that .971 engine number break point, and the gasket is block-specific. The heads received multiple upgrades as well but those updates were independent of engine number.

The final revision to the #22 head casting was to fully enclose the oil passage ahead of the #1 cylinder to help eliminate gasket failure in that location. Previous updates helped prevent cracking under high thermal loads.

That is interesting because the later gasket matches my early block, but not my early head.

Not much makes sense.