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  #151  
Old 06-29-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
Thanks D911 for pointing that out. What changes do I have to make in order to run the test? whunter, how did you do your test?
You need to connect your Vacuum Gauge directly to the Check Valve and find some way to depress the Lever/roller on the Vacuum Pump. That will cause the Piston to move and discharge the Air inside of the Pump.

When the Lever/Roller is released it will create a Vacuum.

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  #152  
Old 06-29-2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Army View Post
It is interesting to see how this thread has developed.

Are most people (or even all?) now convinced that the piston parks?
If the Piston does not park I believe that when there is a Vacuum in the Pump at the very least it makes it easier for the Lever/Roller to move.

That would decrease the amount of force needed to move the Lever/Roller and decrease the stress and wear on it.

That would also mean the Lever/Roller would not be pushing as hard on the Timer.
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  #153  
Old 06-29-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
I think the diaphragm pump has the ability to park, still not convinced it happens much on the piston pump. Diaphragm pump has a lot more area and no rings for the vacuum to leak around.

Maybe that's why we know of a history of failures with the piston pump but I don't recall any bearing failures on the diaphragm pump reported on here. Does anyone else?
There is no Metal Piston Ring in the Vacuum Pump.
The head of the Piston has a Ring Groove for an O-ring and a what looks like Nylon Plastic Sleeve gones over that.
The Nylon Sleeve is retained on the Piston Head and moves with the Piston in the (Steel Insert) Bore of the Pump.

Item 28 is the Plastic Seal
Item 29 is the O-ring.
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VACUUM PUMP FAILURE! Are you neglecting yours??-vacuum-pump-piston-seals.jpg  
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  #154  
Old 06-29-2012, 11:15 AM
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FYI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
There is no Metal Piston Ring in the Vacuum Pump.
The head of the Piston has a Ring Groove for an O-ring and a what looks like Nylon Plastic Sleeve gones over that.
The Nylon Sleeve is retained on the Piston Head and moves with the Piston in the Aluminum Bore of the Pump.
The piston ring/seals look like a large rubber band and large O-ring.

The vacuum pump piston bore has a steel sleeve, when it becomes scored it must be replaced or junk the pump body.


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  #155  
Old 06-29-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
In that I did not blow anything up and that it held vacuum indicating the plate valves in both pumps are ok.
If your inlet nipple check valve was intact and functioning properly, you might want to rethink your test procedure.
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  #156  
Old 06-29-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
The piston ring/seals look like a large rubber band and large O-ring.

The vacuum pump piston bore has a steel sleeve, when it becomes scored it must be replaced or junk the pump body.
The steel sleeve is hardened and ground. I have never seen a bore scored - a very hard particle >60Rockwell C would have to find its way in there to do so and it's no mystery how it does! Cover the pump check valve with a cap immediately when you remove the vac hose. It's usually the 2mm thick Teflon band that gets scored. The O-ring keeps the Teflon band pressed against the bore. If undamaged it is a very good seal.
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Last edited by Beagle; 06-29-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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  #157  
Old 06-29-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by funola View Post
Now I am curious how whunter was able to park his NOS piston pump, but only 2 out of 5 times.
This topic is interesting, it is making me reevaluate my understanding of the piston vacuum pump + have fun testing the cases of used pumps on hand.


FYI:
Capped - sealed the vacuum supply fitting.
Mounted the body to plywood in a vise.
I manually pumped the lever many times.

Later I made a reinforced fitting and glued it to the exhaust valves, attached first one - then two refrigeration compressors on the suction side.

The test results where generally the same:

* The vacuum pump parked any time there was a perfect seal.

* Anything less than perfect = failure to park or in several cases an audible leak.

* Many of the used pumps failed to reach 13 inches mercury vacuum, this is why they where in my bin of cores to be rebuilt.

* Several of my "good used" units failed this test because the valves or piston where leaking, 18 - 20 inches mercury vacuum, but would not hold for any measurable time.

Conclusion:
#1. If the total vacuum system (including pump) is PERFECT, the pump will park.
#2. The MB engineers where smart in designing for the LESS than perfect REAL world conditions.
#3. The design is incredibly robust as proven by durability.
#4. Ignoring vacuum leaks is eventually lethal to the vacuum pump.

My view point:
Unfortunately too many owners overlook or ignore a weak vacuum pump until it fails.
A repair kit or NEW vacuum pump is less expensive than an engine or funeral.

DANGER:
Low or bad vacuum supply is a SAFETY issue because it directly effects your BRAKES.


The first step in any/all vacuum system diagnosis is: Verify the vacuum source, everything else is a waste of time until this is done.


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  #158  
Old 06-29-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
The steel sleeve is hardened and ground. I have never seen a bore scored - a very hard particle >60Rockwell C would have to find its way in there to do so and it's no mystery how it does! Cover the pump check valve with a cap immediately when you remove the vac hose. It's usually the 2mm thick Teflon band that gets scored. The O-ring keeps the Teflon band pressed against the bore. If undamaged it is a very good seal.
From my experience in the field, it is not unusual for the steel sleeve to be scored or damaged by sand, dust, dirt over time.

I will try to find time to strip and take photos of some damaged sleeves.


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  #159  
Old 06-29-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
I think the diaphragm pump has the ability to park, still not convinced it happens much on the piston pump. Diaphragm pump has a lot more area and no rings for the vacuum to leak around.

Maybe that's why we know of a history of failures with the piston pump but I don't recall any bearing failures on the diaphragm pump reported on here. Does anyone else?
FWIW at this point, the VP in my friends 240 was a diaphragm type and did lose its balls while he had the car and even though they made their way to the oil pump screen no damage was done to the engine. Lucky guy

Thank you to all you scientific minded experimenters, good info.
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Last edited by Stevo; 06-29-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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  #160  
Old 06-29-2012, 03:20 PM
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The manual transmission MB vans only have one vacuum feature--the shut off valve. I wonder if the pumps last longer on the vans.
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  #161  
Old 06-29-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
Conclusion:
#1. If the total vacuum system (including pump) is PERFECT, the pump will park.
On auto transmission vehicles, the vacuum control valve guarantees that the system is never PERFECT.
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  #162  
Old 06-29-2012, 05:21 PM
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Coming in late to the thread, but:

I'm planning on rebuilding my vacuum pump as a preventative measure. Although I can find the check valve and diaphragm kits, I don't see any listed parts for the bearing.

Does anyone know what bearing is needed for a W115?
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  #163  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:42 PM
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1964 VW bug

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Last edited by whunter; 06-07-2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: removed old number
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  #164  
Old 06-30-2012, 02:19 AM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolardave View Post
Coming in late to the thread, but:

I'm planning on rebuilding my vacuum pump as a preventative measure. Although I can find the check valve and diaphragm kits, I don't see any listed parts for the bearing.

Does anyone know what bearing is needed for a W115?
If you want only the bearing, read this post, we only sell the arm assembly.
VACUUM PUMP FAILURE! Are you neglecting yours??


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  #165  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:22 AM
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I am trying to find just the bearing. So far I have been able to find some decent quality Nachi (Japan) bearings on ebay for under $10, but I'm not certain they are

Quote:
SIX ball "Precision" 626 (i.e. Grade 50 or better)
I just used a Nachi to fix an idler pulley bearing on my Jetta and it was nice

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