Is fuel flow the only difference between turbo and NA pumps? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Proctor750 · #1 12-12-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

With the shipping that is about $747 US. Paypal takes a cut of the Money exchange rate.

I don't really have an answer. I think you need to do somemore reasearch at some Fuel Injection Shops and ask some questions.

Tell them what you want and ask the if it is possilble to recalibrate the Turbo Pump as it is.
You don't actually have to do the work there just ask and see what they say.

You never said what is damaged on the Fuel Injection Pump. The front Section is the Fuel Injection Pump itself and the rear section is the Governor.

I've been working closely with a bosch tech from a local injection shop. 35 + years experience. He was able to find alternative pump numbers, but all of which were euro like mine. He thinks the turbo pump should work if fuel flow is the only reason for power difference. I ruined the original pump housing by over torquing the delivery valves with a click type wrench.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

Why would you pay a ridiculous price of one from Europe ?

Here is a cheap good used injection pump in California...

Used Fuel Injection Pump 6010700801 Mercedes Benz 190D 1984 | eBay

.

Find me a 5cyl non turbo pump in the us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy

I'd slap the turbo pump on just to see what happened.

I think that's where I stand

Diesel911 · #2 12-12-2012, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proctor750

I've been working closely with a bosch tech from a local injection shop. 35 + years experience. He was able to find alternative pump numbers, but all of which were euro like mine. He thinks the turbo pump should work if fuel flow is the only reason for power difference. I ruined the original pump housing by over torquing the delivery valves with a click type wrench.

Find me a 5cyl non turbo pump in the us

I think that's where I stand

Looks like you don't have much choice.
I thought the Tech would be able to look up the parts and see if the innards had the same part number. Apparently that was more time than he wanted to spend on it.

The timing difference could be there because you have a Manual Transmission. You used to se that on gassers; a Car with a Manual Trans had a different Timing then one with an Automatic.

Anyway, the IP timing is easy to change.

whunter · #3 12-13-2012, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proctor750

I've been working closely with a bosch tech from a local injection shop. 35 + years experience. He was able to find alternative pump numbers, but all of which were euro like mine. He thinks the turbo pump should work if fuel flow is the only reason for power difference. I ruined the original pump housing by over torquing the delivery valves with a click type wrench.

Find me a 5cyl non turbo pump in the us

I think that's where I stand

My mistake.

Looking through the service material, it appears the variations are:
* Fuel flow.
* Altitude compensator replaced by the ALDA.
* Different base timing for better performance with the turbo/ALDA.

The turbo injection pump will work, there are a couple of naturally aspirated Canada vehicles with this replacement that visit me several times per year.
They claim it has better power.

Could you please post pictures of the damaged injection pump.
* It is possible one of us may have parts to repair it.
* I have a (local Detroit) BOSCH shop that can usually repair it, depending upon damage.

.

Proctor750 · #4 12-13-2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

My mistake.

Looking through the service material, it appears the variations are:
* Fuel flow.
* Altitude compensator replaced by the ALDA.
* Different base timing for better performance with the turbo/ALDA.

The turbo injection pump will work, there are a couple of naturally aspirated Canada vehicles with this replacement that visit me several times per year.
They claim it has better power.

Could you please post pictures of the damaged injection pump.
* It is possible one of us may have parts to repair it.
* I have a (local Detroit) BOSCH shop that can usually repair it, depending upon damage.

.

Excellent information! That's a great relief as I just pulled the turbo pump out of a 2.5 300 yesterday. It locked the pin at 16 degrees vs mine at 18. Not sure I'd that would merit an adjustment or not but I've heard that some cars get better mpg with slight enrichment.

Ill post pics but its not salvagable as the housing is ruined.

barry12345 · #5 12-20-2012, 10:03 PM

Before anything else I would check the fuel milage over a couple of tanks. It would be normal for an individual to be hypersensitive to whatever he or she is seeing smoke wise right now. For example if it is cool you normally experience a little different exhaust than in warmer weather.

Plus you probably would have not been into the delivery seals of the old pump without some reason. Fuel milage delivered gives a simple guy like me a general yardstick of how things are in the fuel delivery system. I do not know where you live so remember in a lot of areas winter grade fuel will punish your current milage per gallon achieved..

vstech · #6 12-12-2012, 11:04 AM

many 201 body vehicles in the us have the 2.5 N/A engine... parts search could net you one... junkyards may have it at the ready...
also I think there is one near me at a scrap yard for sale... but you'll have to buy the entire car... it's dented up, so it'll be cheap.

Proctor750 · #7 12-12-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

many 201 body vehicles in the us have the 2.5 N/A engine... parts search could net you one... junkyards may have it at the ready...
also I think there is one near me at a scrap yard for sale... but you'll have to buy the entire car... it's dented up, so it'll be cheap.

I may be wrong but I bet its a 2.2. I thought the only 2.5 NA 5cyl 201s are gray market cars... good luck finding that sitting at a local pull a part. One thing is certain, my exact pump number is nowhere on the webs used (0400075976) and the known alternative #s are all in europe. But hey mines not the only gray market car so let me know if infact it is!

vstech · #8 12-12-2012, 11:40 AM

well that figures...
I'll let you know, but I'll bet you are right.

pgringo · #9 12-12-2012, 07:30 PM

could you not +T your motor? then you would have the right ip for the job.

junkyard injection pump, turbo/exhaust mani, injectors.
oil supply & return lines. some intake hose.

done?

Proctor750 · #10 12-13-2012, 09:04 AM

barry12345 · #11 12-13-2012, 10:43 AM

Same basic engine grey market or not. Droping a request in our parts for sale and wanted section may bring some quick results. The altitude compensator may even be a drop in for the alda. Or someone may have a n/a pump.

If so I personally suspect little functional differances exist. The euro and north american market pumps even if differant should interchange. The two degrees timing diffferance is not all that signifigant I would think on a still indirect injection engine.

It is perhaps a little hard to get a handle on this but at least Mr. Hunter is aware of a couple of swaps that his customers had done with no apparent issues.

This makes good sense as well as with either turbo or non turbo injection pumps for your engine. They are both serving the same engine capacity.

Sounds like the turbo engine pump may provide a little more fuel on demand though from what his customers stated.

I have to add that I am not certain of anything in this area as well. If I had access to a good used injection pump for say a couple of hundred dollars I would probably gamble on it or make an arrangement with the vendor for partial refund if I returned the injection pump. My gut feeling is that it would work. I am fishing by the way to see if anyone thinks otherwise. It will not hurt my feelings if I am wrong as the information is needed.

Depending on how bad the car was needed. For example if it was the only thing I had to drive. If not we have a few members that make fairly regular rounds of pick and pull yards. They are going to see natural aspired engines of your type there. For some additional fee they may remove and send you a fifty dollar injection pump. Life is full of choices and risks.

Your results with the injection pump you have pulled will add to the knowledge base as well. So post them. I am not a gambler but feel it will probably work out.

whunter · #12 12-13-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proctor750

I don't see any obvious external damage.

You said a torque wrench caused the problem ?

If it is the delivery valves, you can swap from a turbo unit or have the NA pump rebuilt.

If there is a way of getting pictures of the actual physical damage, I would appreciate seeing it.

.

vstech · #13 12-13-2012, 02:11 PM

... I have a turbo 602 pump sitting on the engine with a blown cam... broken chain... was driving when it broke. pump should be OK...

Proctor750 · #14 12-13-2012, 09:04 PM

I can't get a picture of the damage without sawing the pump in half like a display piece on some bosh engineers desk in Germany. When I torqued the holders down it crushed and spread portions of the fuel gallery wall that surround the bottom of the barrels. This is why I couldnt get the cylinder 5 barrel out even with a clothes hanger throught the spill port and me standing on the engine yanking upward. Also you could see the tops of the holders when torqued down were lower than others because of the seats being deformed downward.

I have the original o ring that goes between the pump and block from the donor car and its in good shape. Should I reuse it or just get a new one?

Diesel911 · #15 12-13-2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proctor750

I can't get a picture of the damage without sawing the pump in half like a display piece on some bosh engineers desk in Germany. When I torqued the holders down it crushed and spread portions of the fuel gallery wall that surround the bottom of the barrels. This is why I couldnt get the cylinder 5 barrel out even with a clothes hanger throught the spill port and me standing on the engine yanking upward. Also you could see the tops of the holders when torqued down were lower than others because of the seats being deformed downward.

I have the original o ring that goes between the pump and block from the donor car and its in good shape. Should I reuse it or just get a new one?

You are going through major ordeal concerning the Fuel Injection Pump. If you re-use the Old O-ring and it leaks you will either have to put up with the leak of again remove the Pump to change the O-ring.
I am a cheap Guy but I was in you situation I would not take the chance of adding to My Trouble by reusing the O-ring (because it is not easy to change).

I understand what Happed to the Pump. The threaded area on the IP is at least 3 time thicker than the bottom where the Element (Plunger and Barrels sit). Over tightening means something has to give and it pushes the Barrels downwards.

Pushing the Barrel downwards also changes the Begin of Injection for that particular element.

Also the precision surface of the Steel Barrel seals directly on the precision surface of the IP housing. If it is distorted it likely not to seal anymore.

This is an issue with the M type Pumps. If you over torqued an MW Pump Delivery Valve Holder it is being tightened against another Steel Part (that is actuall the Barrel of the Element) and you would likely snap off the Delivery Valve holder instead of damaging the Element.

Most of Bosch's inline Fuel Injection Pumps are made like the M Pump.