Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:53 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
The critical factor for me is any engine coolant in the oil, that kills more engines than soot ever will.
By the time you see coolant (milkshake) discolored oil, it is usually a major engine and injection pump rebuild.



You are correct, I have run considerably higher, typically, the suggested limit for soot on the old mechanical injection diesel engines was 3-5%.

On my personal vehicles 2% soot with 0W-40 synthetic oil is simply indicating oil change needed now.

At 9000 miles my worst engine is 1.5%, the others vary between 0.5% and 1% soot load.

Please note that:
* I tune to the lean side for durability/MPG.
* Due to serious low diesel cetane issues I add 4-6 ounces of two stroke oil in every tank of fuel.
* Due to serious random fuel quality issues Biobor and StarTron are required frequently (more than 4 times per year).

The filters are changed every 3000 miles, they are cheap and easy.
If during engine service I suspect contamination, the oil is changed regardless of miles.
This is all a matter of choice to me.

.

Thanks.

It really begs the question, that is not possible to answer without much more data, regarding the wear caused by soot. If 1% soot causes a specific level of wear, will the wear be double that amount with 2% soot?

It's a rhetorical question as I do not believe anyone has a good answer for it.

I agree completely about the coolant contamination in the oil. That's the kiss of death.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-25-2013, 08:37 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 1,529
There are lots of interesting studies out there that try to address Brian's rhetorical question. For instance, Google Scholar came up with the document below. Full copies are not available for free unfortunately. Two highlights from the abstract which many here will hopefully appreciate: 1) EGR accelerates wear on diesel engines and 2) wear increases proportionally to soot loading in the oil.

Sato, H., Tokuoka, N., Yamamoto, H., and Sasaki, M., "Study on Wear Mechanism by Soot Contaminated in Engine Oil (First Report: Relation Between Characteristics of Used Oil and Wear)," SAE Technical Paper 1999-01-3573, 1999, doi:10.4271/1999-01-3573.

Abstract:

Increase of soot contaminated in engine oil caused by EGR system accelerates the diesel engine wear, especially in the valve train. Wear of metal is affected by many factors such as concentration and diameter of soot, oil film thickness, oil characteristics, etc. Effects of soot on metal wear were discussed from the point of view of soot concentration, and soot diameter and oil film thickness. Wear test was carried out by using four-ball wear tester. Consequently, it was made clear that wear increases proportionally to soot concentration, and relation between oil film thickness and soot diameter plays very important role in wear mechanism. Further, the surface of wear scar was observed by SEM to discuss effect of soot diameter on wear and existence of abrasive wear by soot and its occurrence conditions were suggested.
__________________
1968 220D, W115, /8, OM615, Automatic transmission.
1987 300TD, W124, OM603, Automatic transmission.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-25-2013, 08:53 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortsguy1 View Post
There are lots of interesting studies out there that try to address Brian's rhetorical question. For instance, Google Scholar came up with the document below. Full copies are not available for free unfortunately. Two highlights from the abstract which many here will hopefully appreciate: 1) EGR accelerates wear on diesel engines and 2) wear increases proportionally to soot loading in the oil.

Sato, H., Tokuoka, N., Yamamoto, H., and Sasaki, M., "Study on Wear Mechanism by Soot Contaminated in Engine Oil (First Report: Relation Between Characteristics of Used Oil and Wear)," SAE Technical Paper 1999-01-3573, 1999, doi:10.4271/1999-01-3573.

Abstract:

Increase of soot contaminated in engine oil caused by EGR system accelerates the diesel engine wear, especially in the valve train. Wear of metal is affected by many factors such as concentration and diameter of soot, oil film thickness, oil characteristics, etc. Effects of soot on metal wear were discussed from the point of view of soot concentration, and soot diameter and oil film thickness. Wear test was carried out by using four-ball wear tester. Consequently, it was made clear that wear increases proportionally to soot concentration, and relation between oil film thickness and soot diameter plays very important role in wear mechanism. Further, the surface of wear scar was observed by SEM to discuss effect of soot diameter on wear and existence of abrasive wear by soot and its occurrence conditions were suggested.
Thanks. I never realized such a document was available and that they confirm a linear relationship between soot and wear.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:09 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 1,529
Almost, but not quite linear

BC-
I was able to find a similar document for download via my school library. It is by some reliable folks at WVU. I turned one graph from their pdf file into an image, so I could post it here. It is a bit small, so let me know if you want me to upload a better version. The wear is not quite linear with soot, and I just didn't want to misinform anyone. The reference material is below.

Effect of diesel soot contaminated oil on engine wear
Sam George, Santhosh Balla, Mridul Gautam∗
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, West Virginia University, Morgantown 26506, USA
Received 28 February 2006; received in revised form 22 September 2006; accepted 13 November 2006
Available online 6 December 2006
Abstract
Contamination of lubricating oil by diesel soot is one of the major causes of increased engine wear, especially with most engine manufacturers
opting for Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) technology to curb oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions. The diesel soot interacts with engine oil
and ultimately leads to wear of engine parts. Factors which can change or modify the characteristics of the soot surface are expected to play an
important role in controlling the interactions with soot. Hence, it is important to study the interactions between soot and oil additives in order to
develop high performance diesel engine oils for engines equipped with EGR.
Astatistically designed experimentwas developed to study the effects of soot contaminated engine oil on wear. The variables that were considered
were the base stock (groups I and II), dispersant level, and zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP) level. The above three variables were formulated at two
levels: low (−1) and high (1), which resulted in 23 matrix (8 oil blends). In order to study the non-linear effect of soot, it was considered as a
variable and was tested at three levels: low (−1), medium (0), and high (1). This resulted in testing of 24 oil samples.
A three-body wear machine was used to simulate and estimate the extent of wear quantitatively. The extent of wear was measured as the actual
loss of material, in grams. A second set of experiments were performed on a milling machine (ball-on-flat disk setup). The wear scars formed
on the steel balls were examined using a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and were analyzed qualitatively to determine the effect of soot
contaminated oils on wear.
The results obtained were analyzed using the general linear model (GLM) procedure of the statistical analysis system (SAS) package to determine
the significance of variables on wear. The analysis indicated that wear increased nonlinearly as the amount of soot increased. Cumulative wear
was more for samples with soot contamination than without soot contamination. This showed a detrimental effect of soot on the oil blends wear
performance. The SAS analysis showed that the base stock and soot content were the most significant variables affecting wear. Dispersant and
ZDP levels were also found to be significant. The highest wear resulted from a sample that had 4% soot.
Attached Thumbnails
Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?-sootwear.gif  
__________________
1968 220D, W115, /8, OM615, Automatic transmission.
1987 300TD, W124, OM603, Automatic transmission.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:11 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 1,529
Oh, and sorry for hijacking your thread BPDave. That always seems to happen with an oil-related thread, but it is no excuse.
__________________
1968 220D, W115, /8, OM615, Automatic transmission.
1987 300TD, W124, OM603, Automatic transmission.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:15 AM
oldsinner111's Avatar
love all animals
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: bristol,tn
Posts: 5,442
they had a university study on diesel oil,1 Cummins 5w40,2 rotella15w40,3 rotella 5w40, thats the honest truth
I use Cummins now in both my om617.951 and m104
__________________
usaf vet,dumb ass,repukes love the wealthy,dems use to protect working citizens.Both sides are parasites
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:27 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396



This graph is rather interesting.


Although the curves are approximately linear, the slope of the curve is quite flat. Using the upper curve, the wear at 1% soot is .0039. The wear at 2% soot is .0044. This represents a 13% increase in wear for a doubling of soot. That's a decent tradeoff, IMHO, and it suggests that running 2% soot as a maximum is hardly detrimental as compared to the traditional 1% limit.

Based upon this data, I'll seriously consider raising my OCI above the current 5K.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-25-2013, 03:55 PM
DeliveryValve's Avatar
Chairman of my Benz
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Central California
Posts: 4,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
#1. Stop changing oil by calendar, unless you are in an extreme condensation area.
#2. Stop changing oil at 3000 miles.
....
.
Just to add more links as to why Changing Oil Often leads to more engine wear.

Long term UOA test results.
Mobil 1 Test Results


SAE white papers.
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear

Antiwear Performance of Low Phosphorus Engine Oils on Tappet Inserts in Motored Sliding Valvetrain Test

Raman Characterization of Anti-Wear Films Formed from Fresh and Aged Engine Oils






Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
[....
The filters are changed every 3000 miles, they are cheap and easy.
...
.
3,000 mile oil filter changes are too frequent. I think 61x and 60x filters should be good up to 7,500 to 10,000 miles. But a UOA on the specific engine will tell for sure.


.
__________________
1983 123.133 California
- GreaseCar Veg System



Last edited by DeliveryValve; 01-25-2013 at 04:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:33 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,357
Hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliveryValve View Post
3,000 mile oil filter changes are too frequent. I think 61x and 60x filters should be good up to 7,500 to 10,000 miles. But a UOA on the specific engine will tell for sure.

.
It is a personal choice.


.
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Prototype Vehicle build.
Prototype Fleet Durability
Prototype vehicle instrumentation.
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1973 300D
1973 309D - stolen
1978 280SE
1980 240D
1983 300D
1984 190D
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
It is a personal choice.

Of course it is.

Some personal choices are well-grounded. And some are not.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:31 PM
ruchase's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: La La Land and the Irish Riviera MA
Posts: 1,385
very interesting thread…plus all the external references are excellent.

Slightly off topic – what is the general take on using a pre-oil change engine flush?

I use lubro-moly engine flush around once every year. I figure they’re a reputable manufacturer, and reason this makes sense especially with a longer oil change interval.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:43 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruchase View Post

I use lubro-moly engine flush around once every year.
What do believe you are "flushing" once the oil is drained?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:50 PM
ruchase's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: La La Land and the Irish Riviera MA
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
What do believe you are "flushing" once the oil is drained?
To be honest, I'm not really sure. I think it has more of a placebo effect than anything else.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:56 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruchase View Post
I think it has more of a placebo effect than anything else.
Absolutely agree.

It also has a beneficial effect for Luqui Moly.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-25-2013, 06:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 1,529
DeliveryValve-
I am far from an expert on the subject, but as far as I could tell, some of your links are to studies in gasoline engines. And it may be that conclusions for gas engines are not identical as for diesels, due to soot loading concerns.
__________________
1968 220D, W115, /8, OM615, Automatic transmission.
1987 300TD, W124, OM603, Automatic transmission.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page