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  #1  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:06 PM
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Oil Analysis results, please comment!!

Hey there. Just did my first oil analysis, wondered what any of the experts on here thought.
'99 E300 Turbodiesel
Oil is Amsoil Series 3000 HDD 5w-30
5200 miles on the oil
35,000 miles on the diesel engine - still breaking in
sampled through the dipstick
analyzed at Oil Analyzers, Inc..

Soot <1.0
OXD <1.0
NOX 7.1
TBN 9.2
h20 <.05
Fuel <1.0
viscosity @100C 10.9

Fe 42
Cr 2
pb 1
cu 2
Sn 1
Al 14
ni 1
ag 0

Mn 1
Si 6
B 32
Na 2
MG 38
CA 4371
Ba 0
P 1251
Zn 1323
Mo 18
Ti 0
V 0
Cd 0

ANy comments would be appreciated! The guy at oil analyzers said he believes that the wear metals - iron and aluminum and chromium are due to the engine still breaking in at 35k.

Note- this is also the first installation of the series 3000 oil. The previous owner had used the OEM oil, then castrol syntec, then quaker state for some reason, then syntec again. In any case, there may be some cleaning going on with the new installation of the Amsoil.

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  #2  
Old 03-25-2002, 11:12 PM
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Wear metals in the oil indicate wear in the engine, not breaking in at 35,000 miles. 350 miles, I'd call them breaking in, 35,000, definitely wear.

I'm curious about the calcium, though, along with the zinc. I wasn't aware that Amsoil synthetic contained zinc stearate -- I know none of the full synthetics do. Its this particular formulation synthetic based or petroleum based?

Lead (Pb), copper (Cu) and tin (Sn) are from the babbit on the bearings -- if these numbers are elevated (yours are not) it indicates bearing wear.

The phosphate is from the polyphenyl phosphate detergents in the oil additives.

Soot levels are good, so you won't need to change the oil because the soot level is too high.

Check the formulation -- if Amsoil 3000 series contains zinc stearate, I'd switch to another synthetic oil that doesn't have it -- prevents ash buildup in the combustion chambers, as zinc stearate is the source of ash. If it isn't synthetic oil and you have the FSS system PUT SYNTHETIC IN IT!!!! FSS and extended service intervals results in excessive (terminal!) engine wear in short order on dino oil.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
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  #3  
Old 03-26-2002, 08:42 AM
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Peter, What is the "FSS" system ? What lubricant do you use ? Sounds like you have some experience on this subject.... If you are worried about starting one of those long oil discussions going please pm or email me... Thanks,Greg
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Old 03-26-2002, 10:08 AM
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I'm not a chemist, and so the only thing that would mean anything to me, would be to see the clean oil analysis in comparison. These numbers appear to be parts per million or some such thing, and knowing that most refiners have all kinds of cats and dogs in their oil makes me leary of taking this information and acting on it. The key to any chemical analysis is understanding the baseline or standard. Sounds like Peter has some experience with oil analysis.

Incidently, how much does this service cost and who does it?
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Old 03-26-2002, 10:54 AM
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There is always going to be some wear metals in the oil, more before it's broken in. The only way to tell if this is normal wear is to compare to samples from the same type of engine. I run Amsoil synthetic in a Powerstroke and the numbers usually show slightly higher wear than normal (normal meaning oil at 5,000 miles). I run it 10,000 miles and the metals come back slightly higher than 5,000 mile conventional oil, meaning lower wear. I also use a bypass filter on it, Powerstroke injection systems need really clean oil to work right. If you can, find an analysis service that has built a database of what is normal for your engine, might try calling different ones to see if they already have an extensive database.
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Old 03-26-2002, 11:06 AM
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Greg,

FSS stands for Flexible Service System and it constantly monitors the oil quality using variable such as engine rpm's, stop and go driving, freeway driving, hard acceleration, etc... It was employed in 1998 in, I believe, all MB's.
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Old 03-26-2002, 11:08 AM
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Since this is the first sample with a good quality syn diesel oil, I'd believe that its cleaned out some deposits, so I wouldn't think about this sample too much. Sample again in 5000 miles and start a trend analysis. TBN 9.2 is very low for Amsoil, which means to me that this oil did some cleaning. Typically TBN is 12.0-12.5 for this oil. Soot is nice and low. For what its worth, my opinion is that Amsoil 5w30 is not worth it unless you plan on running extended drains - in any diesel engine Run it a few more times using your FSS system and do analysis to get a trend. Then try some other oils such as Delvac 1 a few times, to see if wear rates change for better or worse.

Brian
'87 300DT 219Kmi
'00 Jetta TDI 124Kmi (sold)
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Old 03-26-2002, 12:57 PM
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Are you sure the TBN is 12-12.5 on the 5w30? I know it is on the 15w40, thought the 5w30 was TBN 10, not sure though.
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1999 International 4900, DT466e (250hp/660 ft/lbs), Allison MD3060 ~73k
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  #9  
Old 03-26-2002, 07:42 PM
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MB has sent around a service notice that FSS and extended oil change intervals can only be done with synthetic oil (I think they are shipping new cars with Mobil 1 or similar). If dino oil is used, revert to "normal" oil changes, severe sludging can result otherwise.

This is verified by my friend the mechanic's experience -- in cars using dino oil and FSS, the engine is black on the inside, with visible hard sludge. Not a good thing.

Oil analysis kits are available from any diesel mechanic service (I recommend the local Caterpillar dealer in my area), cost something like $7.50. You get a mailing container, labels, and a 4 oz plastic bottle to send the oil off in.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #10  
Old 03-26-2002, 07:46 PM
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psfred, this is exactly one of the reasons I feel there is a lot of crap(for lack of better term) in my oil. The car's original owner drove it teh standard 12k on dino I believe, how horrible. In any case, I expect much lower levels on my next analysis, as the amsoil was most likely cleaning out at least some portion of this sludge/gunk.
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  #11  
Old 03-26-2002, 08:09 PM
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Probably more crap in the filter than in the oil. If it were me, I'd change oil and filter and see what happens in 5000 miles or so, 3000 if you want to do an "interum" analysis. Much cheaper in the long run than engine damage.

I'm not too fond of Amsoil -- I think it is overpriced for what you get, not that there is anything wrong with it. It is fine oil and will provide excellent service at extended change intervals.

However, any synthetic will provide extended service so long as the base fluid is synthetic -- have a care, as there is at least one product out there that is mineral oil with synthetic additives being sold as "full synthetic" at synthetic prices when it is the same stuff as the "dino" next to it on the shelf!

The usual reason synthetics need to be changed is soot accumulation, not degredation of additives, and this is the critical parameter if you don't have a bypass filter, or even if you do -- the soot becomes abrasive at levels over 1% or so.

I've not started an analysis program on any of my cars (no point on the 220D, the oil doesn't stay in it long enough!), but probably will on the 300D and 300TE.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2002, 08:35 PM
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Lightman

Check out this site, it may give you some answers.

http://members.rennlist.com/oil/

Harry

86 300 SDL
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  #13  
Old 03-26-2002, 09:54 PM
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I am 100% certain that Amsoil TBN is 12+ for the HDD 5w30. It is also 12+ for the 15w40 and 10w40. Confirmed by amsoil spec sheets AND baseline analysis.

Most agree that soot can go to 3% before one needs to worry - this is true for CH-4 rated oils which are the majority of diesel oils. With older CF oils (non-diesel synthetic oils Mobil 1, Valvoline SynPower, ...) I might stick closer to 1%.

Brian

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