Need Someone With Machinist Knowledge Too Look At This Thread

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by Simpler=Better

If you can turn, you can bore. A sharp 2 flute endmill makes a fine boring bar. Feel free to PM me if you want to chitchat about it later.

I tihnk you're going to have more trouble making a reamer process for a small batch of parts.

Boring setup isn't too bad once you do it once:
-Mount part in chuck
-Confirm that it's centered with dial indicator
-Get your boring bar in the tool post (eyeballing placement is fine)
-Set the autofeed
-make a shallow cut, keeping things lubricated. WD40 is A-ok for this.
-After making the cut, and confirming that the part is smooth, take a measurement.
-take another cut, targeting a specific measurement.
-measure. if it's dead nuts on, they're you're calibrated & setup. if not, play with your setup until you can hit your target on the first try.

I would expect to spend maybe an hour boring a preexisting bushing, most of that setup and finding tools.

I think I know what you mean. I have inavertenly had the Tail Stock of set a tiny amount and had a Drill Bit in the Tails Stock in a manner that the cutting edge of the Drill Bit where it first entered the Work was at 9 O'clock and noticed that the Drill Bit only cut on that one side
I can see that a would also happen if you use an end Mill.

I actully think that the .001 Total Clearence between the shaft is not correct. No one on that forum has said where that spec came from.

Also in the guide that came with the Lather they list 1/2-1" nominal diameter as needing .001-.002 clearence for a running fit.

On the sample Aluminum Cylinder I got .0034 so that is not so far off. I also found that the front edges of the rignt after the taperd part have a larger OD then back further. You can measuer that and you can feel it tighen up if I run the Cylinder from the rear to the front.

I have an Expansion Reamer coming like the one on the first page of the post. But, I am considering just cutting off the enlarged portion of the reamer and making a shorter taper.
I had originally planned to make a guilde that bolts up to the IP anyway. I can make a shorter guide if the Reamer is shorter.

To the good side the Shaft connects to the front portion of the Pump by way of sort of an X piece followed by a Plate that pushes on the Single Plunger. That means that some offset in the shaft is not going to stress much in the IP as the X piece acts somewhat like a U-joint.

Another Plus is that the new Shaft Bushings don't need much reamed out of them.

[Maxbumpo]

I am not a machinist, but it seems to me that if you remove some material a little at a time, measure in between each removal, then you can slowly approach your target and reduce risk of getting it wrong. Trying to hit the target in one shot sounds like a quick way to make the hole too big.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by Maxbumpo

I am not a machinist, but it seems to me that if you remove some material a little at a time, measure in between each removal, then you can slowly approach your target and reduce risk of getting it wrong. Trying to hit the target in one shot sounds like a quick way to make the hole too big.

All of the Reamers in the Pic are called Adjustable or Expansion Reamers on the internet. I don't know if they are labled correctly. I have always called the #1 Reamer and Adjustable Reamer and #3-#4 Expansion Reamers. You cannot see it but #4 has a front end that you can turn a screw on and it expands the tip.

However on #4 they said that the Expansion feature is not for making holes larger but so it can be resharpened more often.

I orderd a #2 Reamer believeing that it might offer better alienment then the #1.
However, I think I have discovered part of My issue with the Reamer I have.

[Frank Reiner]

Diesel911:

This thread has gained a bit of volume; quite a few thoughts are in play.

Please allow me to make some observations:

1) With the internal parts removed from the pump there appears to be a circular cavity that is concentric with the bore for the bushings.

2) You have already chucked the pump housing (with internal jaws) in the cavity mentioned above.

3) The style of bushing you have described, with a seam and a semi-finished bore, is made that way for at least two reasons, a) it is made flat and then rolled for low cost of manufacturing, b) it is slightly reduced in diameter when pressed into the housing bore, and the springiness of the shell maintains the required press fit.

4) A split-seam, semi-finished bushing is intended to be finished to size after it is pressed into the housing bore.

5) You can chuck the housing, indicate the bushing bore and the seal bore, and if the seal bore is concentric with the bushing bore, then the seal bore can be used as a reference bore to re-indicate the housing after the semi-finished bushings have been pressed in, and the housing put back on the chuck.

6) As mentioned by others, a two flute end mill makes an excellent boring tool to bore the bushings after the housing has been chucked and re-indicated on the seal bore.

7) When, as in this instance, it is possible to use a single point cutting tool (one flute of an end mill), superior control of size and finish will be achieved as compared to a multi-point tool.

8) It will be quite impossible to bore, let alone ream, a bushing in a separate housing, remove it from that housing, reinstall it in a second housing, and expect it to be exactly the desired internal size.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner

Diesel911:

This thread has gained a bit of volume; quite a few thoughts are in play.

Please allow me to make some observations:

1) With the internal parts removed from the pump there appears to be a circular cavity that is concentric with the bore for the bushings.

2) You have already chucked the pump housing (with internal jaws) in the cavity mentioned above.

3) The style of bushing you have described, with a seam and a semi-finished bore, is made that way for at least two reasons, a) it is made flat and then rolled for low cost of manufacturing, b) it is slightly reduced in diameter when pressed into the housing bore, and the springiness of the shell maintains the required press fit.

4) A split-seam, semi-finished bushing is intended to be finished to size after it is pressed into the housing bore.

5) You can chuck the housing, indicate the bushing bore and the seal bore, and if the seal bore is concentric with the bushing bore, then the seal bore can be used as a reference bore to re-indicate the housing after the semi-finished bushings have been pressed in, and the housing put back on the chuck.

6) As mentioned by others, a two flute end mill makes an excellent boring tool to bore the bushings after the housing has been chucked and re-indicated on the seal bore.

7) When, as in this instance, it is possible to use a single point cutting tool (one flute of an end mill), superior control of size and finish will be achieved as compared to a multi-point tool.

8) It will be quite impossible to bore, let alone ream, a bushing in a separate housing, remove it from that housing, reinstall it in a second housing, and expect it to be exactly the desired internal size.

Well let us find out about that.

What I am thinking is that the out come will be better than what People on the Other forum are doing with and Adjustable Blade Reamer. I am not expecting it to be perfect. Just much better than what is available.

If you go over on the VW Forum you find a few People who set it to a Machine Shops and the Shops messed up the Job.

I am thinking that if the Bushing goes into a round bore is reamed, removed and goes back into at round bore it should still end up round inside.
What it is going to depend on is if the Bore sizes have variation.
On these Pumps the Timing Belt pulls the Shaft to one side so they are wearing and are not staying in a perfect size.
If I cannot get it perfect I can at least get it better than worn and functional. Somewhat like re-ringing an Engine with the Old Pistons.

Thanks for the Info on how the Bushings are made. It explains way did not match.

[Diesel911]

OK I measured the outside diameter from blade to blade. Fortunatly this reamer has an even number of Blades so there is a blade on each side.

Apparently the Front of the Reamer just past the taper is larger than the more rear portions of the Blade. Right past the Taper is 0.670" and back further down it is 0.669". 17mm- 0.6693" so the front of the Reamer is larger than further Back.

It might be that I can do something to elimnate the Front larger part of the Reamer.

[wolf1941]

Diesel 911

couple of posts back--
grinding front of reamer to act as pilot -
wherever your pilot stops you have to grind a new cutting chamfer
not easy to do providing proper machinery is used -

cutting hand reamer -unless you have cutter grinders
to reestablish the cutting chamfer would not advice cutting the reamer

REAMER TO LARGE -- hand stone each flute to size needed -
couple of strokes along the flutes up to but do not touch the chamfer -
belief me it works - just make sure you don't over do it .

question -
if the part can be chucked - lathe - mill ore good drill press set up
why use a hand expansion reamer ?
everyday chucking reamer wills do the job on the money -

if thin wall bushing - do not over tighten part in whatever holding device
[ vice grip ] to tight - reamer will cut to size -- spring back after un-chucking =
hole to big - calibers are not able to check this -
Swiss inside mike ore Sunnen gage -

part held in 3 jack chuck -
hole will have 3 high spots even so mating part feels good -
bushing will have accelerated wear -
best -- collet ore fixture -

CUTTING do not baby a reamer - we have 6 cutting edges
and each one of them has to see a chip load to stay centered -
semi high feed - lets say 5-8 times faster then drilling -
at slower speed and a drop of oil work wonders .

have a nice day

Wolfgang

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by wolf1941

Diesel 911

couple of posts back--
grinding front of reamer to act as pilot -
wherever your pilot stops you have to grind a new cutting chamfer
not easy to do providing proper machinery is used -

cutting hand reamer -unless you have cutter grinders
to reestablish the cutting chamfer would not advice cutting the reamer

REAMER TO LARGE -- hand stone each flute to size needed -
couple of strokes along the flutes up to but do not touch the chamfer -
belief me it works - just make sure you don't over do it .

question -
if the part can be chucked - lathe - mill ore good drill press set up
why use a hand expansion reamer ?
everyday chucking reamer wills do the job on the money -

if thin wall bushing - do not over tighten part in whatever holding device
[ vice grip ] to tight - reamer will cut to size -- spring back after un-chucking =
hole to big - calibers are not able to check this -
Swiss inside mike ore Sunnen gage -

part held in 3 jack chuck -
hole will have 3 high spots even so mating part feels good -
bushing will have accelerated wear -
best -- collet ore fixture -

CUTTING do not baby a reamer - we have 6 cutting edges
and each one of them has to see a chip load to stay centered -
semi high feed - lets say 5-8 times faster then drilling -
at slower speed and a drop of oil work wonders .

have a nice day

Wolfgang

I actually did that a couple of strokes just to see. What I have out of the Tool Box are Diamond Type Stones.
I have the Hard Arkansas Stone and other stuff stored some where; that would do a smoother and more accurate job.

Well I am sure someone who knew more about what they are doing could set it up to work with the Equipment that I have. However, I am trying to find a simpler solution that produces an adequate job. I would be real happy if the Bushing ID got reamed .002 more than the Shaft OD.

My preference is to make a Reamer Guide that I can put up against the Pump. There is a Seal Bore before the Bushings and then there is also the bore in the Housing that the 2 Bushings go into.
It is possible to install One Bushing and have a guide that fits into the the Housing Bore. Reame the One Bushing.
Remove the Guide and Reamer and install the other Bushing and stick the Reamer into the already Reamed Busing and use that as a Guide to ream the other Bushing.

Or I can create a guide that fits into the Seal Bore and is about 3-4 inches long so it would give the Reamer a lot of support.

I am going to add the Pics hear. I bought an Old Stock New USA Made Expansion Reamer on eBay for a Total Cost of $17. That is what a new made in China one would cost but shipping would be added.

This item was in the original package and wrapped in Wax Paper and in a Paper Tube So it might have been made back in the 1960s. Has some surface rust spots but entirely functional.

I had worried that it would not expand enough be un-expanded the Bushing starts to get snut. When the Bushing is installed it will be squeezed a little tighter.

Of course the Expansion Reamer also needs a Guide.

See the Pics.

[Simpler=Better]

This right here should give you an idea of what you're doing. He spend a lot of tiem setting up the 4jaw, because well they're a pain. With a 3 jaw you might get lucky right off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy4N6Ds0fO0

[wolf1941]

Diesel 911

bushing - that's it ? Not pressed in some hard to reach place ?

please stick the poor little thing in the lathe -indicate - bore it -

pretty sure you made up your mind to ream it -
expansion reamer LOL I know what the are and there known to be
the worst of the bunch wen it comes to holding size and finish

mid adjustment reamers have a couple of disadvantages -
now where cutting with the flutes , set screw expands the center flutes
creating a radius cutting length -reamer to finish diameter -
multiple lengths flute engagement - like 0.003 per side removal 0.090 inch long cut .

Slow feed -- hand crank =sheeses back to the stone age -
chances are do to abnormal chip engagement pressure
part can slip in the holding device .

installed bushing -
interested to see how you would make the line up
fixture -
the way I see it all that's needed it is holding the handle side steady
the cutting part of the reamer is self supporting .
keep in mind if it is not possible to feed the reamer all the way thru
retrieving the reamer back up could result in some nasty looking scrape marks .

picture of part available ?

Wolfgang

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by wolf1941

Diesel 911

bushing - that's it ? Not pressed in some hard to reach place ?

please stick the poor little thing in the lathe -indicate - bore it -

pretty sure you made up your mind to ream it -
expansion reamer LOL I know what the are and there known to be
the worst of the bunch wen it comes to holding size and finish

mid adjustment reamers have a couple of disadvantages -
now where cutting with the flutes , set screw expands the center flutes
creating a radius cutting length -reamer to finish diameter -
multiple lengths flute engagement - like 0.003 per side removal 0.090 inch long cut .

Slow feed -- hand crank =sheeses back to the stone age -
chances are do to abnormal chip engagement pressure
part can slip in the holding device .

installed bushing -
interested to see how you would make the line up
fixture -
the way I see it all that's needed it is holding the handle side steady
the cutting part of the reamer is self supporting .
keep in mind if it is not possible to feed the reamer all the way thru
retrieving the reamer back up could result in some nasty looking scrape marks .

picture of part available ?

Wolfgang

Actually there is 2 Bushings and unfortunately they are not solid Bushings.

There is a seam and on the one I measured one end of the seam is higher than the other.
So they need to be pressed into something the same size as the Bore before they are reamed or otherwise Machined.

The Good news is that when they were made they must have been pressed into something that kept them round as they are nicely finised inside and don't think there is much that needs to be removed.

Note that sometimes the smaller things are more trouble than larger ones.

Another intrest is that when I removed one of the Bushings it is clear that the Aluminum Housing Bore gets compressed a bit. You can see and measure a slight ID difference between the compressed and uncompressd area and that seam on the Bushing leaves an uncompressed line.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by wolf1941

Diesel 911

bushing - that's it ? Not pressed in some hard to reach place ?

please stick the poor little thing in the lathe -indicate - bore it -

pretty sure you made up your mind to ream it -
expansion reamer LOL I know what the are and there known to be
the worst of the bunch wen it comes to holding size and finish

mid adjustment reamers have a couple of disadvantages -
now where cutting with the flutes , set screw expands the center flutes
creating a radius cutting length -reamer to finish diameter -
multiple lengths flute engagement - like 0.003 per side removal 0.090 inch long cut .

Slow feed -- hand crank =sheeses back to the stone age -
chances are do to abnormal chip engagement pressure
part can slip in the holding device .

installed bushing -
interested to see how you would make the line up
fixture -
the way I see it all that's needed it is holding the handle side steady
the cutting part of the reamer is self supporting .
keep in mind if it is not possible to feed the reamer all the way thru
retrieving the reamer back up could result in some nasty looking scrape marks .

picture of part available ?

Wolfgang

See the Pic.
I think the easiest way to make the Reamer guide is to make a Cylinder that would fit intot he Bore where the Seal Goes. The bore depth is over 1/4" and the ID of the Seal Bore is slighly just over 1 Inch.

The tentative Plan is to mount the a Metal Cylinder in the Lathe Cuck Drill it close to the Reamer Size.

Use the Reamer to ream out the Guide.

The Guide will be 3-4 inches long.

I will remove the whle thing clean it all out degrease the cylindr and the Back part of the Reamer. I will slide the reamer into the Cylinder in a manner that has the Guide partly back over the unflutted end where I inded to Epoxy it while the end that is still in the Flutes keeps it lined up.

Since the Reamer is Center Drilled on each End I will get out my Face Plate and Lathe Dog and Put the Reamer and Guide Assembly between the Centers and Turn enough of of one end to fit into the Seal Bore of the Fuel Injection Pump

I will heat the end of the Guide that was Epoxied on to realease it and clean it up.
It might be able to be used direclty like that or I may need to ad a way to clamp it to the Back of the IP.

There is some variations in my Mind on the above idea.

The other way to go wouuld be to make a large Tubular Guide for the inside of the Fuel Injection Pump. But, the ID of the Housing is over 2.5 Inches. So that would be quite a Chunk of Metal to deal with.

It might be possible to use one of the outer Ring of the Vane Pump for alignment as it fits rather snug in there and I had trouble getting it out. If it is slighly cocked it grabbs the Aluminum.

So I will keep thinking on it. No rush.

I also don't think I have a large enough Drill bit and have not looked. The 5/8 Hole I drilled in the Aluminum to test the Reamer Worked because I was reaming Aluminum and remove a large amount of Metal was not muche of an issue.
I would rather use Steel for the Guide and that means it is better to get closer to the size of the Reamer.
It also means I need to get the Tail Stock on My Lathe lined back up.

[Diesel911]

I started this thread mainly to learn more about Reamers.

I never stated My sort of goal. I am also a Member of the one of the VW Forums because the Volvo D24 Engine is made by VW and is sort of a VW Rabbit Engine with 2 more Cylinders.

Any way the efforts I have read over on that Forum concerning reaming or boring the Bushing is; sent to a Machine Shop looks like 95% of the time they come back too sloppy or the Pump was assembled any way, no one seems to be actually measuring what the got when they reamed it themselves with Blade type adjustable Reamer with no guide for it creeping up slowly on the ID size by making tiny cuts at a time.

One Member had a Blade type Adjustable Reamer that had a long guide on the End and he modified a no good Fuel Injection Pump Head to accept the long end of the Reamer.

In short there is no easy way for someone to replace their Bushings especially if they are not skilled at that sort of stuff.

Beyond the fact that I need to fix My own Fuel Injection Pump (I have 2 of them one I bought for parts). I believe that the little bugger Bushings can be pressed into the properly sized bore and reamed out and removed and installed in another Pump.

And My intent is to try that by eventually installing the Bushings in Pump A, removing then and re-installing them in Pump B and taking some dimensions and seeing what happens.
If it works I can sell the premachined Bushings and relieve the suffering of the People that want to replace them them selves.

To a lesser extent people have also had trouble removing the Bushings (I have the Tool and Slide Hammer setup). But, I am 95% sure the old Bushings could be Tapped/Thread and a Bolt Screwed in and a puch applied to the Bushing to hammer the Bushing out. I have done that before on other things.

That is also why I think the .002” clearance is a better target. It is very clear that the Pumps can operate for a long time with larger clearances so if the ID is .001 larger than what People believe is the Spec then that all so allows for a bit if safety margin.

As an example one of the VW Forum Members reamed his and found the Pump was getting too hot and had to take the IP apart to enlarge the Bearing Bore.

Besides all of the above on eBay there is a supposed Rebuilt IP for My Volvo. It has a price and also Make offer. I am trying to find more info from the Seller because while My IP runs OK there is wear inside of the Aluminum Housing and the Seal dug a nice ring into the Drive Shaft.
I ask what new Parts went into the Rebuild and what the New Shaft Bearings were Reamed to. I am trying to get some verified info on what the Bearings are really reamed to.
No one sites what source the .001 Shaft Clearance came from and I have spent a lot of time searching the internet for a creditable source and have found none.

[wolf1941]

Diesel 911

first let me say I do own a machine shop and some of the statements I made
like bore the little thing 'y is the way I see it -
Harding chucker - holding the bushing in a collets - boring bar -
internal Swiss mike -- bore to size .
from scratch - OD finish - Id finish allowing for compression - cut off -
press in - job finished -

but now we have split bushings and as Frank Reiner pointed out -
production cost - more to the point would be -split is needed
for lubrication to the metal to metal dry running shaft -

apparently split bushing can be bought ?
OK simple matter of replacing worn out bushings LOL with a twist
doing it the hard way - pressing the bushings out and in up to the
what ever tools are available to the DIY -

keeping in mind -
Diesel 911 has the luxury off having a Lathe -

we have to ream the bushings and let me point out on a split bushing
I would never use a straight blade reamer -spiral -only

line up fixture -
looking at the cut away I need a line up fixture which should have
the largest base available and al it has to do is keep my
Hand cranking motion to the reamer to a minimum - and stay in line -
larger step above the seal diameter - perfect for the base line up -

frugal way of making it - piece of tubing id smaller to be bored fitting
the step and face - this side is finish -
turnover bore and face - to whatever close in range scrap piece material -
is on hand - fabricate a beefy step washer step to fit bored out pipe -
everything aluminum good enough -

the by now pressed in washer --
indicate pipe- drill - bore to accept handle side diameter of the reamer -
you have to figure out what length the pipe should be -

everything prepared - insert reamer place pipe construction on the housing -
step -
chamfer on reamer ore partial slip reamer to bushing - first line up -
other side of pipe washer hole for reamer shank -second line up -
fixture down pressure -start cranking -

come to think of you mention removal of worn bushings -
the line up fixture , with this tough in mind ,
if done right could be used as bushing puller

have a nice day

Wolfgang

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by wolf1941

Diesel 911

first let me say I do own a machine shop and some of the statements I made
like bore the little thing 'y is the way I see it -
Harding chucker - holding the bushing in a collets - boring bar -
internal Swiss mike -- bore to size .
from scratch - OD finish - Id finish allowing for compression - cut off -
press in - job finished -

but now we have split bushings and as Frank Reiner pointed out -
production cost - more to the point would be -split is needed
for lubrication to the metal to metal dry running shaft -

apparently split bushing can be bought ?
OK simple matter of replacing worn out bushings LOL with a twist
doing it the hard way - pressing the bushings out and in up to the
what ever tools are available to the DIY -

keeping in mind -
Diesel 911 has the luxury off having a Lathe -

we have to ream the bushings and let me point out on a split bushing
I would never use a straight blade reamer -spiral -only

line up fixture -
looking at the cut away I need a line up fixture which should have
the largest base available and al it has to do is keep my
Hand cranking motion to the reamer to a minimum - and stay in line -
larger step above the seal diameter - perfect for the base line up -

frugal way of making it - piece of tubing id smaller to be bored fitting
the step and face - this side is finish -
turnover bore and face - to whatever close in range scrap piece material -
is on hand - fabricate a beefy step washer step to fit bored out pipe -
everything aluminum good enough -

the by now pressed in washer --
indicate pipe- drill - bore to accept handle side diameter of the reamer -
you have to figure out what length the pipe should be -

everything prepared - insert reamer place pipe construction on the housing -
step -
chamfer on reamer ore partial slip reamer to bushing - first line up -
other side of pipe washer hole for reamer shank -second line up -
fixture down pressure -start cranking -

come to think of you mention removal of worn bushings -
the line up fixture , with this tough in mind ,
if done right could be used as bushing puller

have a nice day

Wolfgang

The Split Bushings are $5 each and are made for the Pump and you need 2 of them.

One of the Guys on another Forum made a one piece Bushing and that can only be done with the Pumps that don't have the Lubrication Hole between the 2 Bushings.

I stoned down the high spots on the Reamer but have not tested yet.