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  #16  
Old 08-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_G View Post
IP timing
Turning engine clockwise looking from the front to 24BTDC with the number 1 cyl cam lobes pointing upwards-ish, inj pump installed with its marks in alignment.
set the engine to TDC on #1 on the compression stroke, set the IP correctly, and install. AKAIK this should be at 24BTDC??
I don't have access to the service manual for an OM61x engine, so I'm not sure of the procedure. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. On an OM603, the IP has a port on the side for the locking tool, and the engine is set at ~14deg ATDC, and then the pump is installed.

Does your IP have a port for the locking tool? Some of the later turbo OM617 engines in the US did, but I used to have an '85 123.190 (non-turbo wagon) that was a grey-market import, and it did not have a port on the IP for the locking tool, so I suspect that your pump also does not have that port, unless the IP was upgraded with the turbo installation.

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'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_G View Post
Hi Snapped

Primer pump - yes the copper sealing ring and tiny o-ring are replaced.

Just thinking out loud: if the lift pump is under-performing, would there still be white smoke (=unburnt fuel) generated as the engine tries to run?

I will have to follow all leads.

Cheers
If the white smoke is un-burnt fuel, i.e. it smells like fuel and not coolant, then it's air in fuel or injection timing, or poor atomization of the fuel and or peeing injectors.

Start with the easy stuff first, e.g. put a clear pvc line in place of the cigar hose to eliminate air in fuel rather than r&r re-time the injection pump or pull and pop test the injectors. Of course you can do the hard stuff first (I see this over and over again) and have it snow ball into a bigger and bigger job.
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  #18  
Old 08-03-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_G View Post
2. When the engine WAS running OK a few months ago, it faltered and died on me. And has been displaying these symptoms since then. I have replaced spring and valves in the lift pump - and fitted a reconditioned injection pump / rebuilt injectors. The other day I decided to check that I had installed the inj pump correctly - I found that the timing was out! If no other course of action comes up, I will again remove the inj pump and check its timing - if it has moved then I really must have a more sinister problem on my hands!
This pretty clearly says the issue is the lift pump or the IP timing.

Do you still have the old IP?

When you ran the car using a temporary fuel can in the engine bay, what was the discharge rate of the fuel going into the can?
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M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #19  
Old 08-04-2017, 01:28 AM
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When you pump the primer pump with the engine off is there a reasonable stiff resistance or not
The hand primer pump feels as it should, and after a couple of pumps I can hear the fuel going through the bypass valve. This is the original bypass valve.

Start with the easy stuff first, e.g. put a clear pvc line in place of the cigar hose to eliminate air in fue
When you ran the car using a temporary fuel can in the engine bay, what was the discharge rate of the fuel going into the can?
I will check these tomorrow, cheers.

The injectors were professionally rebuilt with Monark tips, I even took them back to be rechecked - I am assuming they are not leaking. Will post back.
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  #20  
Old 08-04-2017, 06:55 AM
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"This engine has generally been rebuilt with new or refurbished parts. I have done all but the specialist stuff myself."

Can you provide details of the rebuild? Have you verified valve train timing? Have you done a compression test before and after rebuild? How was the engine running before rebuild?
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Last edited by funola; 08-04-2017 at 07:12 AM.
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  #21  
Old 08-04-2017, 10:28 AM
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I forgot to mention. The 617 and the 603 will run poorly with the injection pump seriously out of timing on the wrong engine stroke. The 603 much better than the 617 though.


In your case if you have not already. Look at the valve lobes on the first cylinder when the timing mark is at your install the injection pump position. They should be pointing generally in an upward direction. If not rotate the engine exactly once to establish this. The na engines did not have the timing inspection tang port so you have to verify by the drip method pretty much.


Remove the cover from the injection pumps timing port and the tang should be present in the middle of the port. If not then you have the injection pump on the wrong stroke. This I would absolutely check before doing anything else. It could present you with the white unburnt fuel you see very easily if that pump is on the wrong stroke. You would not be the first. Again with your suspected injection pump you will have to drip test for verification. As it is not going to have the inspection port.


You may also have another problem as well but unless you are absolutely certain you installed the injection pump properly you have to verify it. Or you could chase your tail for a long time.

Last edited by barry12345; 08-04-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:18 AM
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In the US market, afaik, only the later turbo 617 engines (84-85's, maybe some 83's) has IP's with the timing port plug (aka RIV port).
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  #23  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
In the US market, afaik, only the later turbo 617 engines (84-85's, maybe some 83's) has IP's with the timing port plug (aka RIV port).
Do you have to adjust to TDCto verify IP timing
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  #24  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:55 AM
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I did

There is a plan in the FSM for this. I followed that. 1 drop per second. Not much room either way when rotating the IP.


snapped_bolt
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  #25  
Old 08-04-2017, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake12tech View Post
Do you have to adjust to TDCto verify IP timing
For your cars, there's a special tool/ adapter that use the TDC sensor as a reference signal for the special tool RIV port adapter (strobe timing light). For cars w/o RIV port, drip timing is the only option.
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  #26  
Old 08-05-2017, 12:03 PM
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But was the injection pump timed on the right stroke in the posters case? I figured no n/a engines had the easy to use timing port and tang. Type injection pump. Maybe the very last European versions did but I do not know.


When installed on the wrong stroke the injection pump will time in beautiful. Other than it is wrong. You have to see those first cylinders valve lobes. pointing generally upward. Other wise it is only a fifty fifty chance you have it right. After major engine work especially.

I would personally verify the fuel supply to the base of the injection pump is good. As this should be the quickest and easiest. It is even possible he has two problems.
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  #27  
Old 08-05-2017, 12:13 PM
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Also I forgot this was a conversion. If there a chance the engine is starting pretty much normally and then just shutting down as the vaccum develops?


How did you set up the shutdown? Simple test is to remove the vacuum line from the injection pump shutoff. Although I have no ideal of how pumping the primer pump could overcome that valve if it was shutting off. Also I would not expect all the white smoke.
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  #28  
Old 08-05-2017, 08:56 PM
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Guys my post yesterday didn't go through, but I have some progress. I have replaced 3 fuel lines with clear plastic - from lift pump to main fuel filter, then from filter to IP, and 'cigar' line.

There is an issue with the fitting going into the IP - there is a collar/adapter which is turning in the IP body which makes loostening and tightening of that banjo fitting very difficult.

Despite that I now have no air evident in the 3 lines, she starts but is running very rough with those clouds of white smoke. Loostening the inj pipes one by one shows the inj are all working. Revs need to be held high otherwise she dies.

More investigation this afternoon. Thanks.
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  #29  
Old 08-06-2017, 06:16 AM
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You may also have another problem as well but unless you are absolutely certain you installed the injection pump properly you have to verify it

I went this afternoon to start the engine - with the 'throttle' held open she started right away. No sign of air in the lines. I stopped it after say 15sec, tried again - no start. Pumped the hand pump, still no air, started right away again. I checked and there is plenty of flow returning to tank. The initial 'firing' is a strong nailing noise.

Unless any other ideas present themselves I am going to remove the IP again, see if the timing has gotten bad, and repair the loose inlet fitting.

Thanks.
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OM617 - fires then dies! help needed please.-img_0001_1.jpg  
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2017, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_G View Post
Unless any other ideas present themselves I am going to remove the IP again, see if the timing has gotten bad, and repair the loose inlet fitting.
That loose fitting you described does bother me, I'm not familiar enough with your IP to know for sure, but that just doesn't sound right. Any loose fitting may very well leak fuel out or suck air in.

Looking forward to hearing the results of checking the IP timing.

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Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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