Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 06-05-2018, 10:40 AM
240Dee's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Not being argumentative, but what exactly else would you say it is?



I mean, it's a salt and rust free 240D that had about 71k at the time. Uses zeronoil. Runs great on the highway. Maybe a bit rough at idle but I'm doing valves and mounts currently. It's not like this is an old, poor condition car.



Look at how clean the block is:











When I took the fan bolts out the other day, they were like new.



I'm just not seeing the plausibility of corroded bolts or other means of failure. My new compressor is a bit crooked, but it only manifested itself this year as a noisy belt.


Sweet mother.....you could eat off that block! Mine is pretty clean but not like that...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-08-2018, 09:40 AM
240Dee's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 186
Saw the car at the shop today! So when they got in there, they found two bolts of the six had backed out and then the remaining four sheered off. So again, seems the little four banger diesel shook two loose and then decided to throw the pulley! Check those crank pulley screws folks, they can and will back out over time!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:43 AM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Good pics. That was the same deal with mine... I still have one of those bolts.
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: West of Ft. Worth. TX
Posts: 4,079
What is the torque requirement for the crankshaft pulley bolts? I'm betting some may be loosened a bit before you can notice it visually.
__________________
Sam

84 300SD 350K+ miles ( Blue Belle )
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-08-2018, 03:18 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Not being argumentative, but what exactly else would you say it is?

I mean, it's a salt and rust free 240D that had about 71k at the time. Uses zeronoil. Runs great on the highway. Maybe a bit rough at idle but I'm doing valves and mounts currently. It's not like this is an old, poor condition car.

Look at how clean the block is:





When I took the fan bolts out the other day, they were like new.

I'm just not seeing the plausibility of corroded bolts or other means of failure. My new compressor is a bit crooked, but it only manifested itself this year as a noisy belt.
That "clean block" photo looks like someone cleaned just the area where the engine casting numbers are so it's legible while everything else around it is black and gunky.

The issue here is not corroded bolts, it's those 6 bolts that some how came loose, backed out and eventually sheared off. If those bolts did not come loose, you would not be having this problem.

How did they come loose? I can think of a few reasons:

1. From the factory. Maybe the torque-ing of those bolts was done on a Friday afternoon and a lot of beer was consumed?

2. Someone R&R those 6 bolts and did not replace with new bolts, did not torque them to spec, and did not use Loctite.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-08-2018, 06:09 PM
Shern's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 397
If retorquing, would it not make more sense to remove each bolt one by one, further applying loctite as you went? And which loctite variety?
__________________
1981 240D 4sp manual. Ivory White.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-09-2018, 08:17 AM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
That "clean block" photo looks like someone cleaned just the area where the engine casting numbers are so it's legible while everything else around it is black and gunky.

The issue here is not corroded bolts, it's those 6 bolts that some how came loose, backed out and eventually sheared off. If those bolts did not come loose, you would not be having this problem.

How did they come loose? I can think of a few reasons:

1. From the factory. Maybe the torque-ing of those bolts was done on a Friday afternoon and a lot of beer was consumed?

2. Someone R&R those 6 bolts and did not replace with new bolts, did not torque them to spec, and did not use Loctite.

Think what you want, I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you of the reality of how clean the engine block is.

The reality is that this does seem to be a relatively systematic problem, in at if even a few people have encountered it, it is something that has been observed to happen. Whether it's a slip up in manufacturing, a matter of the slightly more rough idle of a 240, or what is something we may never know.

The use of loctite is probably the big thing here, and it's probably prudent for the bolt torque levels to be verified on these cars, if not removed and retorqued once coated with loctite.

It's as prudent as any other preventive mod that we do on these cars.
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-10-2018, 08:28 AM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shern View Post
If retorquing, would it not make more sense to remove each bolt one by one, further applying loctite as you went? And which loctite variety?
Great point and question. I guess the unknown is how many times might you have to go back and mess with the same thing again?

It's just a horrible location to work. At least with my 240, the fan shroud will not come out, it's too wide and gets caught on the radiator hose. Everything can be done, at a time price...

But is the point to do it in place, practically blindly? Or with most everything removed to make it easier?

Also, when loctite is used, do threads need to be chased in order to remove residues?

I'd be somewhat hesitant to need to use heat and impact to get loctite red off. But if you're going to commit to one that will face the elements and heat cycles, I'd say that's the one.
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:32 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
.........................................................................................

But is the point to do it in place, practically blindly? Or with most everything removed to make it easier?

Also, when loctite is used, do threads need to be chased in order to remove residues?

................................
I am surprised this question was even asked! On a critical torque operation such as this, removing the condenser/ radiator so you have room for the critical torque procedure is a must do, instead of shortcuts and working blindly. Maybe the ones with the sheared pulley bolts have been done with shortcuts / doing it blindly?

If the threads are clean with no trace of rust or anti-seize (which should not be there in the first place), then no chasing with a tap should be preformed. Chasing will invariably make the bolt/ thread fit looser than it was- you don't want that. Just spray it with brake clean before applying Loctite.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:51 PM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
I am surprised this question was even asked! On a critical torque operation such as this, removing the condenser/ radiator so you have room for the critical torque procedure is a must do, instead of shortcuts and working blindly. Maybe the ones with the sheared pulley bolts have been done with shortcuts / doing it blindly?

If the threads are clean with no trace of rust or anti-seize (which should not be there in the first place), then no chasing with a tap should be preformed. Chasing will invariably make the bolt/ thread fit looser than it was- you don't want that. Just spray it with brake clean before applying Loctite.


Note the person said retorquing. Not extracting sheared bolts or doing a repair right.

If this has a root cause, which is not fixed by doing it once (I.e. One would want to do it for peace of mind), having to take that many steps turns into a hassle, which means it won't get done.

Having something with cured loctite means to me that threads would not be the same as if it was metal to metal only.

Fixing it the right way the first time, sure. Remove the stuff. On mine I was pulling the compressor anyway. If one is not, evacuating to pull the condenser on an R12 system is a pricy proposition.

And if even loctite red won't give peace of mind due to the consistent vibration and thermal cycling on this part, then a routine torque check may be prudent. If that's the case, removing a ton of stuff is impractical.

Mine went at 70k. That means that a 60k-ish retorque may be prudent if we don't know otherwise about the true cause. Removing everything to do that just isn't practical.

And the context I was stating was for re-checking. I'm surprised you would think anyone wouldn't do the most rigorous processs possible after a failure.
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:55 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Note the person said retorquing. Not extracting sheared bolts or doing a repair right.

If this has a root cause, which is not fixed by doing it once (I.e. One would want to do it for peace of mind), having to take that many steps turns into a hassle, which means it won't get done.

Having something with cured loctite means to me that threads would not be the same as if it was metal to metal only.

Fixing it the right way the first time, sure. Remove the stuff. On mine I was pulling the compressor anyway. If one is not, evacuating to pull the condenser on an R12 system is a pricy proposition.

And if even loctite red won't give peace of mind due to the consistent vibration and thermal cycling on this part, then a routine torque check may be prudent. If that's the case, removing a ton of stuff is impractical.

Mine went at 70k. That means that a 60k-ish retorque may be prudent if we don't know otherwise about the true cause. Removing everything to do that just isn't practical.

And the context I was stating was for re-checking. I'm surprised you would think anyone wouldn't do the most rigorous processs possible after a failure.
There is an easier way! Just put permanent paint dots (such as POR 15) on the bolts and pulley, check with a mirror to see if they have backed out.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-10-2018, 01:03 PM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
There is an easier way! Just put permanent paint dots (such as POR 15) on the bolts and pulley, check with a mirror to see if they have backed out.

That is a great idea!!
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:55 PM
240Dee's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 186
240D dumped its coolant, belts slack

So Iíve put a few hundred miles on the car since the pulley and new belts were put in and I have to say that it runs realllyyy smoothly at high rpms and actually pulls quite well. I even taped a 21 second 0-60mph for the hell of it hahaa. Itís quite a marked difference in what Iíd call a robust and responsive power application - albeit low power, but when something is off and you probably only have 50 ponies left on a good day, itís quite noticeable.



https://youtu.be/kbZR4SSNa44


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by 240Dee; 06-17-2018 at 03:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-17-2018, 04:14 PM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Dee View Post
So Iíve put a few hundred miles on the car since the pulley and new belts were put in and I have to say that it runs realllyyy smoothly at high rpms and actually pulls quite well. I even taped a 21 second 0-60mph for the hell of it hahaa. Itís quite a marked difference in what Iíd call a robust and responsive power application - albeit low power, but when something is off and you probably only have 50 ponies left on a good day, itís quite noticeable.
They do run well, and want to run (albeit loudly) when pushed. Just can't do that much with 67 or so HP...

Beautiful color, BTW.
__________________
Own:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1998 Chevrolet S-10 ZR2 (62K)
2011 BMW 135i cv (14k)
2014 Honda Odyssey (6k)
2015 Honda Accord Hybrid (5k)
Had:
2008 VW Rabbit (70k)
2004 SAAB 9-3 (83k)
1991 BMW 318i (183K)
1983 300D (228K) (wrecked by at-fault uninsured driver)
1985 300D (233K) (now in FL)
1994 Acura Integra (188k) (Rusted out)
1992 Toyota 4Runner (72k) (Rusted out)
1990 Daihatsu Rocky (??) (No parts)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page